Difference between revisions of "(Ep3mis1) Why mistakes in jazz are possible."

Discussion[edit]

The Mistakes page has already established with arguments, as well as with a list of actual types of mistakes, that mistakes can and do occur when performing jazz. The question on this page asks for an accounting as to why as well as how this is even possible.

How mistakes in jazz are possible[edit]

• What is required for a mistake to be possible? The answer is that there must already be an established criteria that contrasts with any mistake against which the mistake concerned is judged to count as a mistake. There must exist criteria of correctness such that this particular event failed to conform to that standard thereby being out of compliance. Hence, relative to this particular standard the non-compliant event counts as a mistake.

• Now think of how many standard practices there are when playing jazz. The reason it is such an enervating and challenging musical environment is precisely because there are so many standard playing practices and conventions. For example, Thelonious Monk did not like how Miles Davis played a song that Monk had written, but Miles's version of how to play the song became the more standard way to play the bridge, or whatever it was.^[1] So, is Miles making a mistake? It is relative to what frame of reference you wish to use. Relative to the musical score, and the composer of the song, the answer would be yes because Miles 'is playing it wrong.' Perhaps, though, Miles is recomposing at that point that Monk doesn't like as to how to play this section of the song, and if this becomes the standard way amongst musicians who perform the song to play it, then it is no longer a mistake regarding standard practices regarding the playing of this particular song.

• The conclusion is supportive of the main point that mistakes can only be judged against some particular standards of correctness.

• ➢ Can there be bad completely free jazz improvisations? The answer is a resounding "Yes there can!"
  
  

It is not as if each free improvisation is as good as any other free improvisation. Even when there are LESS rules to conform to, there is much that can be critiqued as both good and bad in such improvisations. Here it may be less clear during a bad improvisation that a mistake has been made, but arguably one could correctly claim that "at this point in Fred's free improvisation he made a mistake in playing this same one note for an hour." This doesn't seem that out of the ordinary and seems like an acceptable use of the word "mistake."

PoJ.fm chats with ChatGPT (January 30 2023 version) about the possibility of mistakes in jazz and free jazz performances[edit]

PoJ.fm: How mistakes in jazz are possible. What is required for a mistake to be possible? The answer is that there must already be an established criteria that contrasts with any mistake against which the mistake concerned is judged to count as a mistake. There must exist criteria of correctness such that this particular event failed to conform to that standard thereby being out of compliance. Hence, relative to this particular standard the non-compliant event counts as a mistake.

PoJ.fm: Now think of how many standard practices there are when playing jazz. The reason it is such an enervating and challenging musical environment is precisely because there are so many standard playing practices and conventions. For example, Thelonious Monk did not like how Miles Davis played a song that Monk had written, but Miles's version of how to play the song became the more standard way to play the bridge, or whatever it was. So, is Miles making a mistake? It is relative to what frame of reference you wish to use. Relative to the musical score, and the composer of the song, the answer would be yes because Miles 'is playing it wrong.' Perhaps, though, Miles is recomposing at that point that Monk doesn't like as to how to play this section of the song, and if this becomes the standard way amongst musicians who perform the song to play it, then it is no longer a mistake regarding standard practices regarding the playing of this particular song.

ChatGPT: The conclusion is supportive of the main point that mistakes can only be judged against some particular standards of correctness.

In jazz, where there are so many different standards and practices, mistakes are bound to happen. But they are only mistakes in relation to a specific standard or convention. And as the music evolves, those standards and conventions can change, which means that what was once a mistake may no longer be considered as such. So while mistakes may happen in jazz, they are just one aspect of the ongoing evolution and experimentation that makes the music so exciting and dynamic.

PoJ.fm: What is required for a mistake to be possible?

ChatGPT: For a mistake to be possible, there must be an established criteria or standard against which the mistake can be judged. This standard represents a specific frame of reference, and if an event or action fails to conform to that standard, it can be considered a mistake. In other words, mistakes can only be identified in relation to some particular standard of correctness.

PoJ.fm: What are the standards of correctness in current contemporary jazz? What would be considered a mistake in jazz performance by a musician?

The standards of correctness in contemporary jazz are often determined by the particular sub-genre of jazz being played and the musical context of the performance. However, there are some general standards that are expected of musicians in a jazz performance. These include:

Technical proficiency: Musicians are expected to have a high level of technical ability and mastery over their instrument.

Musicality: Jazz is an improvisational art form, but musicians must also have a strong sense of melody, harmony, and rhythm.

Interpretation: Jazz musicians are expected to have a deep understanding of the style and tradition of the music, and be able to interpret and play the music in a way that is true to its history and context.

Communication and interaction: Jazz is a collaborative art form, and musicians are expected to communicate with and respond to each other on stage in a way that creates a cohesive and dynamic performance.

In terms of what would be considered a mistake in a jazz performance, this would depend on the context of the performance and the specific standards of correctness for that performance. However, mistakes in jazz performance could include technical errors, incorrect notes, lack of musicality, poor interpretation of the music, or failure to communicate and interact effectively with other musicians on stage. Ultimately, the standard of correctness is determined by the expectations of the audience, the musicians themselves, and the traditions and conventions of the particular sub-genre of jazz being performed.

PoJ.fm: Besides these possible mistake types of technical errors, incorrect notes, lack of musicality, poor interpretation of the music, or failure to communicate and interact effectively with other musicians on stage, what other things could be considered mistakes by a musician playing jazz?

ChatGPT: In addition to the types of mistakes mentioned earlier, there are a few other things that could be considered mistakes by a musician playing jazz. These include:

Not listening to the other musicians on stage: Jazz is a collaborative art form, and musicians are expected to listen to each other and respond in real-time. If a musician is not paying attention to what is happening around them, it can be considered a mistake.

Playing too many notes: Jazz is often characterized by complex, virtuosic playing, but playing too many notes can be a mistake. This is because it can lead to a cluttered, chaotic sound that doesn't allow the music to breathe.

Playing too few notes: On the other hand, playing too few notes can also be a mistake in jazz. This is because it can make the music sound flat and lacking in energy.

Failing to connect with the audience: Jazz musicians are not just playing for themselves or for other musicians; they are also playing for an audience. Failing to connect with the audience and engage them in the music can be considered a mistake.

Ultimately, what is considered a mistake in jazz depends on the expectations of the audience and the musicians themselves, as well as the specific context and tradition of the music being played.

PoJ.fm: What are ten more possible mistakes that might be made by a jazz musician when performing? What about not knowing where the one is in a beat?

ChatGPT: Here are ten more possible mistakes that a jazz musician might make when performing:

Playing too loud or too soft.

Being out of tune with the other musicians.

Failing to maintain a consistent tempo.

Playing with poor articulation or phrasing.

Using inappropriate or out-of-place musical techniques or effects.

Ignoring or violating the musical form or structure.

Playing in a different style or genre than what is appropriate for the song or performance context.

Failing to prepare adequately or rehearse enough beforehand.

Playing an incorrect chord progression or melody line.

Playing with poor intonation or tone quality.

As for not knowing where the "one" is in a beat, this would be considered a mistake in jazz performance. The "one" is the downbeat, or the first beat in a measure, and it is the anchor point for the rhythm and feel of the music. If a musician is unsure of where the "one" is, they may play in a way that is out of sync with the other musicians or the audience, resulting in a disjointed or confusing performance.

PoJ.fm: Are there ten more possible mistakes that a jazz musician could make?

ChatGPT: Sure, here are ten more possible mistakes that a jazz musician could make:

Playing too fast or too slow for the tempo of the song.

Failing to properly balance or blend with the other instruments in the ensemble.

Overplaying or underplaying during a solo or other musical section.

Using inappropriate or unoriginal improvisation techniques.

Failing to follow the lead of the other musicians during a performance.

Playing with poor dynamics, such as not varying the volume enough.

Playing with poor rhythm or timing, such as rushing or dragging the beat.

Failing to properly cue or signal the other musicians during a performance.

Using poor judgment in terms of when to play or when to lay out.

Failing to be present and focused during the performance, such as being distracted or inattentive.

PoJ.fm: Are there ten more possible mistakes? What about acting sexist by a male chauvinist jazz musician to a female jazz musician? Might this be considered a social or political mistake in jazz?

ChatGPT: Yes, there are certainly more possible mistakes that a jazz musician could make. Here are ten more examples:

Playing with poor tone or sound quality, such as using an unappealing timbre or overblowing on the instrument.

Playing with poor balance or mix, such as being too loud or overpowering other musicians in the ensemble.

Failing to properly prepare or research the music, such as playing the wrong style for a particular song or not understanding the context of the music.

Failing to properly communicate with the other musicians or the audience, such as not acknowledging the other performers or failing to connect with the audience during a performance.

Playing with poor taste or judgment, such as using an inappropriate or offensive musical phrase or technique.

Being unprofessional or disrespectful during a performance, such as being late or not showing up to rehearsals or gigs.

Failing to adapt to changes in the performance or the music, such as not following cues or changing dynamics on stage.

Playing with poor technique or execution, such as hitting the wrong notes or failing to properly execute a musical passage.

Failing to properly maintain or care for the instrument, such as having a dirty or damaged instrument that affects the sound quality.

Playing with poor musicality or expression, such as not bringing enough emotion or nuance to the performance.

Regarding the example of acting sexist towards a female jazz musician, this would certainly be considered a social or political mistake in jazz. Jazz, like any art form, is not only about the music itself, but also about the culture and values that surround it. Sexism or any other form of discrimination goes against the values of equality and respect that are central to many jazz communities. It can be seen as a form of disrespect and can damage the collaborative and inclusive nature of the music.

PoJ.fm: Can a free jazz performance ever have some of these mistakes? How?

ChatGPT: Yes, it is possible for a free jazz performance to have some of the mistakes mentioned earlier, although the standards and expectations for free jazz performance may differ somewhat from other jazz sub-genres. Free jazz emphasizes improvisation, spontaneity, and experimentation, and it often eschews the traditional structures and conventions of jazz music.

However, even in free jazz, there can be certain standards of correctness that are expected of musicians. For example, even though the music may be free-form, musicians are expected to communicate and interact with each other in real-time, and they are expected to maintain a sense of cohesiveness and direction throughout the performance. Mistakes in free jazz could include failing to maintain this sense of direction or cohesion, or failing to communicate effectively with the other musicians on stage.

Additionally, some of the technical mistakes mentioned earlier, such as playing out of tune or rushing the tempo, could still be considered mistakes in a free jazz performance, even if the overall aesthetic is more experimental and improvisational. Ultimately, the standards of correctness for free jazz may be more fluid and open-ended than for other jazz sub-genres, but they still exist, and mistakes can still be made in relation to these standards.

PoJ.fm: What other mistakes might a free jazz musician make during a free jazz performance?

ChatGPT: In addition to the mistakes mentioned earlier, here are some other examples of mistakes that a free jazz musician might make during a performance:

Failing to take risks or experiment enough: Free jazz is all about experimentation and pushing boundaries, so failing to take risks or explore new musical ideas could be considered a mistake.

Failing to listen and respond to other musicians: Even in a free jazz context, musicians must still listen and respond to each other in order to create a coherent and engaging performance.

Being too self-indulgent: Free jazz can be a very personal and individualistic art form, but if a musician is too focused on their own playing to the detriment of the overall sound, it can be considered a mistake.

Overplaying or underplaying: Free jazz can be very dynamic and expressive, but playing too much or too little during a performance can throw off the balance of the music.

Failing to adapt to changes in the music or performance: Free jazz often involves sudden shifts and changes in the music, and musicians must be able to adapt and respond in real-time.

Using poor technique or execution: Even in a free jazz context, musicians are expected to have a high level of technical ability and mastery over their instrument.

Playing with poor dynamics or expression: Free jazz is often very expressive and emotional, and playing with poor dynamics or expression can result in a flat or uninspired performance.

Being overly repetitive or predictable: While free jazz can involve repetition and patterns, being too repetitive or predictable can lead to a boring or monotonous performance.

Failing to take cues or listen to the other musicians: Even though free jazz may not have a predetermined structure, musicians still need to be aware of cues and signals from their fellow performers.

Not fully committing to the performance: Free jazz requires a high level of energy, commitment, and engagement from the performers, and failing to fully commit to the performance can result in a lackluster or uninspired show.

PoJ.fm: What are ten more mistakes a free jazz musician might make?

ChatGPT: Here are ten more possible mistakes that a free jazz musician might make during a performance:

Failing to connect with the audience: Even though free jazz may not have a set structure or form, musicians must still engage with the audience and create a connection with them.

Playing with poor or inappropriate tone: While free jazz allows for experimentation and exploration, playing with poor or inappropriate tone can detract from the overall sound of the music.

Failing to maintain a consistent rhythmic pulse: Even though free jazz is often free-form, it still relies on a consistent rhythmic pulse to give the music direction and momentum.

Failing to properly balance or blend with other instruments: Even in a free jazz context, musicians must be aware of their place in the overall sound and balance themselves accordingly.

Failing to properly use space and silence: Free jazz often involves using space and silence in creative ways, and failing to do so can result in a cluttered or overwhelming sound.

Being too chaotic or unstructured: Free jazz allows for experimentation and freedom, but being too chaotic or unstructured can make the music difficult to follow or appreciate.

Failing to properly use or respond to musical cues: Free jazz may not have a predetermined structure, but musicians must still be aware of cues and signals from their fellow performers in order to create a cohesive and engaging performance.

Playing with poor dynamics or phrasing: Even though free jazz allows for a high degree of personal expression, playing with poor dynamics or phrasing can detract from the overall sound and energy of the music.

Playing with poor improvisation skills: Free jazz relies heavily on improvisation, and musicians must be able to improvise in a way that is creative, interesting, and engaging.

Failing to create a sense of forward momentum or direction: Even though free jazz may not have a predetermined structure, musicians must still create a sense of forward momentum and direction in order to keep the music engaging and dynamic.

PoJ.fm: What do free jazz musicians need to accomplish musically so that they can make music that is creative, interesting, and engaging?

ChatGPT: Free jazz musicians need to accomplish several things in order to make music that is creative, interesting, and engaging. These include:

Listening: Free jazz is often highly collaborative, and musicians need to listen to each other in order to create a cohesive sound. This means being aware of the sounds and ideas coming from the other musicians and responding to them in real time.

Creativity: Free jazz is all about pushing boundaries and exploring new musical ideas. Musicians must be willing to take risks and experiment in order to create something new and innovative.

Expressiveness: Free jazz is often highly expressive and emotional, and musicians must be able to convey their feelings and ideas through their playing.

Technique: Even though free jazz allows for a high degree of experimentation, musicians must still have a high level of technical ability in order to execute their ideas effectively.

Musicality: Free jazz is not just about experimentation and expression; it also requires a strong sense of melody, harmony, and rhythm in order to create a compelling sound.

Collaboration: Free jazz often involves improvisation and spontaneous interaction between musicians. Musicians must be able to work together effectively in order to create a cohesive and dynamic performance.

Adaptability: Free jazz often involves sudden shifts and changes in the music. Musicians must be able to adapt to these changes in real time and respond creatively and effectively.

Self-awareness: Free jazz often involves personal expression and individuality, but musicians must still be aware of their place in the overall sound and balance themselves accordingly.

Openness: Free jazz often involves pushing boundaries and exploring new ideas. Musicians must be open to new experiences and willing to try new things.

Energy: Free jazz is often high-energy and dynamic. Musicians must be able to create and maintain a sense of energy and momentum in order to keep the music engaging and exciting.

PoJ.fm: Are there ten more things that free jazz musicians should strive to accomplish to produce music that is creative, interesting, and engaging?

ChatGPT: Yes, here are ten more things that free jazz musicians should strive to accomplish in order to produce music that is creative, interesting, and engaging:

Emotion: Free jazz is often highly emotive and expressive. Musicians must be able to convey their feelings and ideas through their playing and connect with the audience on an emotional level.

Storytelling: Free jazz can be seen as a form of musical storytelling. Musicians must be able to use their instruments to convey a narrative or tell a story that is compelling and engaging.

Unity: Even though free jazz allows for a high degree of experimentation and individuality, musicians must still work together to create a cohesive and unified sound.

Originality: Free jazz is all about pushing boundaries and exploring new musical ideas. Musicians must strive to be original and innovative in their approach to the music.

Authenticity: Free jazz often involves personal expression and individuality. Musicians must be true to themselves and their artistic vision in order to create an authentic and genuine sound.

Communication: Free jazz often involves improvisation and spontaneous interaction between musicians. Musicians must be able to communicate effectively with each other in order to create a cohesive and engaging sound.

Versatility: Free jazz can encompass a wide range of musical styles and influences. Musicians must be able to draw on a variety of musical traditions and techniques in order to create a dynamic and interesting sound.

Attention to detail: Free jazz can involve complex and intricate musical structures. Musicians must be able to pay attention to the details of the music in order to execute their ideas effectively.

Humility: Free jazz often involves personal expression and individuality, but musicians must also be humble and aware of their place in the overall sound.

Experimentation: Free jazz is all about pushing boundaries and exploring new musical ideas. Musicians must be willing to experiment and take risks in order to create something new and exciting.

PoJ.fm: If a free jazz musician fails at these tasks can it correctly be thought of as the free jazz musician having made a mistake? Why is it considered a mistake? What exactly is a mistake anyway?

ChatGPT: Whether or not a free jazz musician failing to accomplish the tasks mentioned can be considered a "mistake" depends on the context and standards being applied. If the musician is judged against commonly accepted standards of creativity, musicianship, and engagement, and found to be lacking in one or more areas, it could be considered a mistake relative to those standards.

In general, a mistake can be thought of as an error or deviation from a standard or expectation. It is a failure to meet a particular criterion or goal, whether that goal is technical, musical, or aesthetic. The concept of a mistake is often relative to a particular context or set of standards, and what may be considered a mistake in one context may not be considered a mistake in another.

For example, a free jazz musician who is playing in a very experimental and unconventional style may be judged against different standards than a musician playing in a more traditional jazz style. What may be considered a mistake in the traditional jazz context may be seen as an intentional or creative choice in the free jazz context.

Overall, whether or not something is considered a mistake is often a matter of context and perspective, and depends on the standards and expectations being applied.

Internet Resources on Mistakes[edit]

• Rhona-Mae Arca, "There's no such thing as a wrong note," MuseSpeakStudio.com, December 18, 2008. Accessed June 25, 2022.

NOTES[edit]

1. ↑ The Bad Plus's pianist Ethan Iverson notes two songs that Monk thought Miles 'played wrong' in his article "Think of Thelonious Monk," The New Yorker, October 10, 2017, third paragraph.

   “Most of the skeptics ended up admiring his compositions, although certain great musicians, like Miles Davis, Lennie Tristano, and Oscar Peterson, would continue to dislike aspects of his playing. Ironically, Davis began his ascendency with a performance of Monk’s “ ’Round Midnight.” The ironies are compounded when you remember that Monk would always be irritated about how Davis used incorrect chord changes, not just on “ ’Round Midnight” but on “Well, You Needn’t,” as well.” (bold not in original)