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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>What are Paul Hoffman's views on Descartes's theory of ideas when he critiques Dr. David C. Ring's paper "Descartes on the Form of a Thought"? given at the American Philosophical Association Eastern Division Eighty-Eighth Annual Meeting at the Marriott Marquis Hotel, New York, New York, December 27-30, 1991, as verbatim quoted below with none of the bold font found in the original:</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Comments on Dr. David C. Ring’s “Idea as the Form of Thought in Descartes” by Paul Hoffman</h2>
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<p>David Ring<img class="wp-image-4542" style="width: 150px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/8e738f25-a5b0-405c-9fbb-6273bc09d2c8.png" alt="An enhanced color photographic headshot and torso cutout of a smiling and glasses adorned Dr. David C. Ring wearing a lighter blue patterned shirt used to visually identify him.">finds <strong>two incompatible definitions of ideas</strong> in Descartes: the <strong>representational or imagistic definition</strong>, and the <strong>form definition</strong>. There are <strong>two elements to the representational definition</strong>, at least according to Professor Ring’s account of the standard interpretation of it: first, an idea is a <strong>mode of thought that represents</strong> something; and second, an <strong>idea represents by containing objective reality</strong>. According to Descartes’s form definition, an idea is the form of any thought, immediate perception of which makes me aware of the thought. These definitions yield incompatible results, because, Professor Ring argues, Descartes thinks there [are] two kinds of non-representational thoughts which count as ideas under the form definition. <strong>His solution</strong> to this apparent inconsistency is to argue that <strong>the form definition is the more fundamental definition</strong> because it <strong>provides a unified account of the awareness of a thought</strong>, and that <strong>the representation definition should be understood as being limited in its application to certain specialized contexts</strong>.</p>
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<p>Although Professor <strong>Ring denies that Descartes thinks all ideas represent something</strong>, he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes “firmly maintains that <strong>all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something”</strong> (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13). That is, Professor <em>Ring claims to find in Descartes a crucial distinction between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something</em>. And it is this distinction, I think, that is driving the paper. Since he thinks that all ideas are of something but that not all ideas represent something, <strong>he is motivated to search for an account of ideas that provides a unified theory of awareness</strong>, that is, an account which <strong>explains how those ideas or forms of thought that are not representational can still be of something</strong>. He claims that the form definition provides such an account.</p>
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<p>This distinction, between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something, is not one that defenders of the standard interpretation are likely to recognize. For them, for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something. One might well imagine a defender of the standard interpretation responding to Professor Ring in this way: the forms that you are calling non-representational are representational since you yourself say they are of something.</p>
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<p>There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. The passage that Professor Ring cites as the key piece of textual evidence in favor of the standard interpretation view that all ideas represent something lies in close proximity in the Third Meditation to the passage he cites as the key piece of evidence that all ideas are of something. These are the two passages: first (this is the passage supporting the standard interpretation that all ideas represent something), “Some of my thoughts are as if images of things, and it is only in these cases that the term ‘idea’ is strictly appropriate (AT VII 37; CSM II 25); and second (this is the passage alleged to support the view that all ideas are of something), “there can be no ideas which are not as if of things” (AT VII 44; CSM II 30). I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something. I think the French translation of the second passage bears this out. Professor Ring thinks that translation is mistaken. That passage is rendered in English by Cottingham as follows: “ideas, being like images, must in each case appear to us to represent something.”</p>
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<p>It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.</p>
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<p>Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational. Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition “to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational” (p. 13) is misguided. There are no such ideas.</p>
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<p>I would also argue that it is [a] mistake to think that Descartes’s form definition of ideas could explain his claim in the Third Meditation that all ideas are as if of something. On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains. Volitions are the clearest example of such forms of thought. As Professor Ring and other commentators have noted, Descartes, in responding to Hobbes, says that volitions are ideas because we immediately perceive them. More precisely, Descartes says that when I will something, I perceive that I will, and this is why volitions are ideas (AT VII 181; CSM II 127). What Descartes seems to be implying here is that volitions are ideas not because we are aware of the representational aspect of such thoughts, but because we are aware of the volitional aspect of them. But the volitional aspect of a thought is not itself as if of something in the Third Meditation sense. It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something. And it seems hardly intelligible, as Professor Ring is committed to saying, that the volitional aspect of a thought is as if of its thought’s form (p. 14). So I think the correct conclusion is that there is a genuine tension between Descartes’s two definitions of idea. But I don’t think this tension is philosophically problematic. Sometimes Descartes uses the term ‘idea’ to refer to the forms of thought that are immediate objects of thought, but other times he restricts it to refer to those forms of thought that are as if of something.</p>
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<p>Let me be clear, however, that I am not trying to vindicate what Professor Ring characterizes as the standard interpretation of the representation definition of ideas. As I noted at the outset, he identifies two elements in the representation definition. The first is that an idea is a form of thought that represents something. The second is that an idea represents by containing objective reality. It is his acceptance of this account of how ideas represent, coupled with the strong textual evidence that Descartes thinks that there are some ideas, most notably sensations, that are as if of something but which do not contain any objective reality, that leads him to conclude that Descartes thinks that some ideas which are as if of something are not representational.</p>
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<p>In other words, Professor Ring thinks that in order to save Descartes 4 from being committed to the three following inconsistent propositions:</p>
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<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1. All ideas are as if an image of something;</p>
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<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2. All ideas that are as if an image of something have objective reality;</p>
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<p>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3. Not all ideas have objective reality; we should deny that he assents to the first proposition and replace it with the proposition that “all ideas are as if of something.”</p>
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<p>I have responded that there is no difference between these two propositions. So his solution is no solution.</p>
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<p>What then is the correct solution? I am in wholehearted agreement with Professor Ring that Descartes thinks some ideas that are as if of something do not contain any objective reality, and this is what I take to be his fundamental challenge to the standard interpretation. Therefore, what needs to be given up is the second proposition—that all ideas that are as if images of things have objective reality — which, on my view, but not on Professor Ring’s, is equivalent to the proposition that all ideas that are as if of things have objective reality. In other words, it is second element of the standard interpretation that is mistaken. </p>
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<p>But what justifies giving up the second proposition instead of concluding that Descartes contradicts himself? The answer is that Descartes thinks most of our ideas that are as if of something do contain objective reality, and to avoid complications in explaining his notion of objective reality he sometimes overgeneralizes. That is, contrary to Professor Ring and proponents of the standard interpretation, I do not think that Descartes uses the notion of objective reality to explain the notion of representation. Instead, I think that he uses the notion of representation, being as if of something, to explain objective reality. And to simplify that account of objective reality, a complicated enough notion by itself, Descartes leaves out that important class of ideas that are as if of things but which do not contain objective reality. This is not to say he completely ignores that class of ideas, but instead treats them separately in his discussions of material falsity.</p>
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<p>In the end, I think, my points of agreement with Professor Ring are more significant than our points of disagreement. But let me conclude by noting one important area of disagreement between us. In a footnote Professor Ring argues that his interpretation shows that Descartes recognizes that sensations are not intentional, they do not represent, they are not about anything, and so Descartes is not guilty of Richard Rorty’s accusation that he defines the mental as the intentional. On my reading of Descartes, sensations are as if of something, and that is just what it is to be intentional or representational.</p>
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<p>There is more to be said here. I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him. Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it. But that is a story to be worked out on another occasion.</p>
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<p>Paul Hoffman <img class="wp-image-14355" style="width: 150px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2023/12/IMG_6908-scaled.jpeg" alt="An enhanced graphic of René Descartes’s head in the upper left quadrant with a photographic headshot of Paul Hoffman wearing a blue t-shirt in the lower right quadrant and above his head in white font is the question “What is the ofness of ideas?” on a sky-blue background is used as a featured image."> MIT</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(18 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>“David Ring finds two incompatible definitions of ideas in Descartes: the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition.” (Hoffman, p. 1)</p>
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<p>“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>“Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition ‘to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational’ (p. 13) is misguided.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>“I think the correct conclusion is that there is a genuine tension between Descartes’s two definitions of idea.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>“On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>“Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>“What Descartes seems to be implying here is that volitions are ideas not because we are aware of the representational aspect of such thoughts, but because we are aware of the volitional aspect of them.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>“I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him.” (Hoffman, p. 6)</p>
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<p>“Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it.” (Hoffman, p. 6)</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>What are Hoffman's arguments as found in his comments above?</p>
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<p>Hoffman argues that Dr. Ring’s attempt to reconcile what he takes to be two distinct definitions of ideas in Descartes—the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition—is misguided. He contends that Dr. Ring’s distinction between an idea’s being “of something” and its representing something does not stand, and that no non-representational ideas exist in Descartes’s system. According to Hoffman, Dr. Ring’s effort to show that some ideas are “of something” but not representational fails because, for Descartes, to be “as if of something” just is to be representational. Hoffman further argues that Dr. Ring’s invocation of the form definition does not resolve the alleged inconsistency in Descartes’s account, but rather generates new tensions—particularly in the case of volitions, which Hoffmann maintains do not fit Dr. Ring’s model of non-representational “ideas.”</p>
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<p>Hoffman asserts:</p>
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<p>“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>He argues that attempts to locate non-representational ideas in Descartes are misguided:</p>
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<p>“Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition ‘to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational’ (p. 13) is misguided. There are no such ideas.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>He underscores that the form definition does not solve the issue but introduces conflicts with Descartes’s texts:</p>
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<p>“I would also argue that it is [a] mistake to think that Descartes’s form definition of ideas could explain his claim in the Third Meditation that all ideas are as if of something. On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>Hoffman uses the example of volitions to show that not all “ideas” understood under the form definition have the “as if of something” quality, thus contradicting Dr. Ring’s solution:</p>
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<p>“But the volitional aspect of a thought is not itself as if of something in the Third Meditation sense. It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>Hoffman concludes that what must be rejected is not the representational nature of ideas in general, but the notion that all ideas containing objective reality must represent in the same way. Instead, he claims Descartes sometimes overgeneralizes and that there is a class of ideas “as if of something” which do not contain objective reality. Such ideas are still representational in the basic sense of being “as if of something,” even if they fail to fit the stricter notion of representation involving objective reality:</p>
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<p>“I am in wholehearted agreement with Professor Ring that Descartes thinks some ideas that are as if of something do not contain any objective reality, and this is what I take to be his fundamental challenge to the standard interpretation.” (Hoffman, p. 5)</p>
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<p>“I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him. Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it.” (Hoffman, p. 6)</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Yet doesn't Hoffman contradict himself when he holds both that (H1) "No non-representational ideas exist in Descartes’s system" with (H2) Some ideas such as volitions are non-representational?</p>
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<p>“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>Hoffman is not contradicting himself here. His position is that there are no genuinely non-representational ideas in Descartes’s system—this is a conclusion he endorses as a correct interpretation of Descartes. When he later discusses volitions, he is not affirming that volitions are truly non-representational ideas; rather, he is highlighting how Dr. Ring’s attempt to use the form definition creates tension. Hoffman argues that Ring’s approach would imply that volitions are to be considered “ideas” in a sense that does not align with the representational conception of “ideas” as “as if of something.” Thus, the apparent suggestion that volitions might be non-representational “ideas” arises from trying to make the form definition do explanatory work that it cannot do without contradiction.</p>
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<p>“On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>Here, Hoffman is describing the consequences of accepting Dr. Ring’s position, not endorsing the existence of non-representational ideas himself. He is showing that if we treat all immediate perceptions of thoughts as “ideas,” then we must count volitions as ideas. But volitions do not meet the criterion of being “as if of something,” which is necessary for representationality. This leads to a contradiction if we follow Dr. Ring’s approach.</p>
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<p>In other words, Hoffman is not claiming both (H1) and (H2). He maintains (H1)—there are no non-representational ideas according to the best interpretation of Descartes. The discussion of volitions is meant to illustrate that Dr. Ring’s attempt to salvage non-representational ideas by appealing to the form definition leads to inconsistency. Hoffman uses the volition example to refute Dr. Ring’s solution, not to assert that Descartes actually has a category of non-representational ideas.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>What differences does it make in Descartes's theory of ideas relative to Hoffman and Ring's differing ways of characterizing Cartesian ideas as when Hoffman writes: "It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something."</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(4 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>Hoffman’s shift in terminology from “of something” to “as if of something” introduces a crucial nuance that affects the interpretation of Cartesian ideas and whether non-representational ideas can exist in Descartes’s system. According to Hoffman:</p>
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<p>“It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>Ring’s usage of “of something” suggests that all ideas have a subject matter that grounds their intentionality, so that even non-representational ideas would still be “about” something in a direct way. By contrast, Hoffman’s preferred formulation “as if of something” emphasizes the representational aspect of ideas more explicitly. Here, ideas are presented as inherently imagistic or representational “as if” they depict something, rather than merely standing in some undefined relation to a content. For Hoffman, to say that all ideas are “as if of something” is to underscore that there is no gap between an idea’s being of something and its being representational.</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s modification weakens the possibility of introducing genuinely non-representational ideas into Descartes’s ontology. Under Ring’s characterization, it might seem plausible that certain forms of thought (like volitions or other immediate perceptions) could be “of something” in a non-representational manner. But when reframed as “as if of something,” any purportedly non-representational idea would still appear to have at least a minimal representational structure, thereby foreclosing the option to distinguish a category of ideas that do not represent at all. Thus, where Ring’s language might allow the notion of non-representational ideas, Hoffman’s language blocks this possibility by linking the “as if” locution directly to Descartes’s own textual evidence, and thereby maintaining a consistent representationalist reading of Cartesian ideas.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Give an example of the two different approaches of Ring versus Hoffman on how they talk about Descartes’s cold sensation. How do the two philosophers, Ring and Hoffman talk about a cold sensation and what it is of and what and how does it represent, or not?</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(9 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>Hoffman draws attention to how Ring treats sensations such as the sensation of cold as “of something” in a way that is supposed to differ from standard representation. Ring’s approach tries to establish a category of ideas that are “of something” without being strictly representational. Hoffman, by contrast, rejects this move. He insists that for Descartes, to be “as if of something” just is to be representational, and thus the cold sensation must be representational in some sense. Ring’s use of “of something” suggests a weaker form of intentionality that might allow certain ideas—like the cold sensation—to count as ideas without representing in the strict, imagistic sense. Hoffman, however, maintains that “as if of something” entails the idea is representational, leaving no room for an idea like the cold sensation to be “of something” without being representational.</p>
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<p>Hoffman writes:</p>
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<p>“It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)</p>
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<p>Here Hoffman contrasts the volitional aspect of a thought with the sensation of cold. The sensation of cold, on Hoffman’s reading of Descartes, is “as if of something” in a representational sense. According to him, if we follow the standard interpretation that to be “as if of something” is to represent something, then the cold sensation does represent something, even if not by containing objective reality in the strict sense. Hoffman’s point is that Ring’s attempt to distinguish “of something” from representation fails in the case of cold sensations, since Hoffman reads Descartes as not recognizing such a non-representational category.</p>
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<p>By contrast, Ring speaks in terms of ideas being “of something” in a way that does not necessarily commit them to robust representation. Under Ring’s interpretation, the cold sensation could be acknowledged as “of something” (some content or subject matter), while not strictly representing it in the full sense that involves objective reality or imagistic representation. This opens a conceptual space for non-representational ideas in Ring’s reading of Descartes’s text, which Hoffman disputes.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Give an example of what Ring claims a cold sensation is of and what it does not represent. What would Hoffman give as an example specifically about what a cold sensation is of, or is as if of?</p>
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<p>In Ring’s interpretation, a cold sensation is "of" something in the sense that it has a subject matter—whatever the sensation of cold is directed toward or based on. For example, Ring may argue that a cold sensation is "of" the external environment or the experience of coldness, yet it does not represent the cold in the full, imagistic sense of representing a particular object or reality. Ring might suggest that the sensation is "of" the cold but does not represent it as an image or mental picture, thus opening the possibility of non-representational ideas. In this line, the cold sensation would have a subject matter (the coldness), but it would not fully “represent” that subject matter the way an image or a more elaborate idea would. Hoffman, however, would frame the issue differently. He would contend that, even in the case of a cold sensation, Descartes sees ideas as being “as if of something”—which means that any sensation, by definition, represents something in a minimal sense. For Hoffman: &gt; "It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something." (Hoffman, p. 3) For Hoffman, the sensation of cold is always “as if of something”—this means that the sensation creates a mental representation (if only in a minimal way), where “as if” indicates that the sensation is experienced as representing the external world’s cold object or state. The cold sensation would be "as if of" the external cold stimulus, because Descartes treats all ideas as being representational in this way. So, for Hoffman, the cold sensation represents coldness or an external object of cold, even if it does not represent in the broader or more intricate sense of an image that contains objective reality. The key contrast here is that Ring’s language allows for the possibility of sensations that are "of something" without representing something in Descartes’s strict sense, while Hoffman insists that for Descartes, the phrase "as if of" ties directly to representation—implying the cold sensation represents the external sensation or external object of cold. for 10 seconds</p>
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<p>According to Ring, the cold sensation can be characterized as “of something” without thereby being representational in the strict sense. As Hoffman notes:</p>
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<p>“Although Professor Ring denies that Descartes thinks all ideas represent something, he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes ‘firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something’ (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13).” (Hoffman, p. 1)</p>
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<p>For Ring, the cold sensation counts as an idea because it is “of something” (it has a subject matter), but this does not entail that it must represent something by containing objective reality. In other words, Ring allows for the possibility that a cold sensation is “of something” while not being fully representational or imagistic.</p>
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<p>Hoffman, on the other hand, insists that to be “as if of something” is already to be representational. When it comes to a cold sensation, Hoffman argues:</p>
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<p>“On my reading of Descartes, sensations are as if of something, and that is just what it is to be intentional or representational.” (Hoffman, p. 6)</p>
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<p>For Hoffman, if a sensation such as the sensation of cold is “as if of something,” it is thereby representational. He rejects the distinction Ring tries to draw between an idea’s being “of something” and its being representational. Thus, where Ring sees a cold sensation as possibly non-representational though still “of something,” Hoffman sees it as necessarily representational because it is “as if of something.”</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 1px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Be even more specific. When you wrote “For Ring, the cold sensation counts as an idea because it is “of something” (it has a subject matter)” you need to provide the answer as to what is the subject matter in Descartes’s cold sensation.</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(5 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>For Ring, the subject matter of Descartes’s cold sensation would be the *experience of cold*, the raw content of the sensory perception. In other words, the cold sensation is "of" something in the sense that it refers to an event or state—namely, the sensation of coldness itself. According to Ring, the cold sensation can be an "idea" because it has a specific subject matter (cold) but does not necessarily represent that subject matter through a full imaginative or objective structure. The sensation is an immediate representation of the state of coldness, but Ring allows for this sensation to not represent in the strict sense that implies containing *objective reality* (such as a visual image representing a body) or having an external causal basis. In contrast, for Hoffman, a cold sensation is always "as if of something," and that means it is intrinsically representational. Hoffman views the cold sensation as representing its subject matter—*coldness*—because of the representational “as if” structure. To Hoffman, it is not just "about coldness" in a vague sense, but actively presents and represents the experience of coldness through the sensory perception itself. He denies that such a sensation could be non-representational; for him, any idea that is "as if of something" must necessarily be a form of representation. Therefore, for Hoffman, the subject matter of the cold sensation is the *perception of cold*, and this perception represents coldness, whether or not it fully captures the objective reality outside the mind. for 19 seconds</p>
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<p>According to Ring, the cold sensation is “of something,” but that “something” is not represented as an object with objective reality. Ring maintains:</p>
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<p>“he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes ‘firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something’ (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13).” (Hoffman, p. 1)</p>
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<p>For Ring, the sensation of cold has a subject matter—namely, the quality of cold itself. It is “of” the cold experienced, without necessarily representing it as an external object that possesses the quality of cold. Thus, from Ring’s perspective, a cold sensation is “of” cold, but this does not entail that the idea includes an image or representation of an external cold object containing objective reality.</p>
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<p>Hoffman, in contrast, insists that a cold sensation is always “as if of something,” meaning that it must be representational in some sense:</p>
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<p>“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>According to Hoffman’s preferred reading, a cold sensation is “as if of something,” and that is precisely what grants it a representational character. In other words, for Hoffman, a cold sensation is not merely “of” the quality of cold; it is experienced “as if” it were the image or representation of something cold. This leaves no room for a category of genuinely non-representational sensations of cold, since even a sensation of cold is treated by Hoffman as representational in virtue of being “as if of something.”</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Let’s explore some implications of Hoffman's commitment to equating “being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” If we start with Ring claiming that, as you wrote, “For Ring, the sensation of cold has a subject matter—namely, the quality of cold itself. It is “of” the cold experienced,“ is this something that Hoffman would agree is what a cold sensation exhibits to a perceiver?</p>
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<p>No, Hoffman would not fully agree with Ring’s interpretation of the cold sensation in this case. While Ring claims that the cold sensation is “of” the quality of cold itself, Hoffman would argue that, for Descartes, such a sensation must include a representational aspect, and therefore, it would not just be “of” cold in an abstract or non-representational sense. In Hoffman’s view, if a cold sensation is “as if of something,” this expression means that the sensation inherently involves representation as an image or mental depiction of cold—this is the hallmark of being “as if of something,” which Hoffman equates with being “as if an image of something.” As Hoffman notes: &gt; “I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2) Thus, Hoffman’s perspective implies that a cold sensation *must* be represented as an image or a mental depiction of something cold, rather than merely being “of” the quality of cold itself without a representational component. In Hoffman's interpretation, a cold sensation cannot simply be “of” cold in an abstract sense (as Ring suggests); instead, it must always involve a representational image of cold as part of the sensation. In summary, Hoffman would argue that a cold sensation is more than just an awareness of cold as a quality. For him, it must involve a mental image or mental representation of cold, making it inherently representational, whereas Ring's interpretation allows the quality of cold itself to serve as a subject matter without requiring any mental imagery. Therefore, Hoffman rejects the possibility of a non-representational sensation of cold, unlike Ring. for 8 seconds</p>
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<p>Hoffman does not deny that a cold sensation appears to the perceiver as if it were of coldness itself. He agrees that when we have a sensation of cold, we perceive something that presents itself as if it were the quality of cold. Hoffman’s disagreement with Ring is not over whether the sensation gives the perceiver something that seems like a quality of coldness, but over whether this “of something” status can be non-representational. Hoffman insists that:</p>
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<p>“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>Ring claims that the cold sensation has a subject matter—the quality of cold—that the perceiver is aware of. Hoffman does not dispute that the perceiver is aware of something that can be described as coldness. Rather, he argues that any sensation “as if of something” is thereby representational. For Hoffman, to be “as if of something” (like the quality of cold) is to be “as if an image of something,” and hence representational.</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s point is that what Ring takes to be a mere subject matter—coldness itself—Hoffman takes to be, from Descartes’s perspective, inherently representational content. Thus, a cold sensation, on Hoffman’s reading, does not just give the perceiver a quality of cold as a neutral subject matter; it gives the perceiver an image or representation “as if” of that quality, making the sensation intentional and representational rather than merely being “of” something in a non-representational way.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>But the two disagree over what you said they did not when you wrote: “a sensation of cold, we perceive something that presents itself as if it were the quality of cold. Hoffman’s disagreement with Ring is not over whether the sensation gives the perceiver something that seems like a quality of coldness” because Ring holds that contrary to any cold sensation presenting itself as if it were the quality of cold, it presents itself as a phenomenologically cold experience. When Hoffman claims that s cold experience is ‘as if it were a cold experience,’ he is mistaken. Because the cold sensation presents an actual cold experience, it is not merely as if of a cold experience, which is removed from an actual cold experience.</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(4 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>According to Ring, the cold sensation is not a mere representational “as if” experience, but rather an actual phenomenological experience of cold. He contends that when one feels cold, the idea is not functioning as if it were of cold; it is genuinely presenting coldness to the perceiver. By contrast, Hoffman insists that if the idea is “as if of something,” it necessarily involves a representational element, akin to containing an image of something cold rather than delivering a direct, non-representational experience.</p>
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<p>This is precisely where the two diverge. Ring suggests that a cold sensation provides the perceiver with the actual quality of cold in experience, not as an image or a representational proxy. For Ring, the sensation’s content is directly of that cold quality, fully realized in the perceiver’s conscious awareness. Hoffman, however, sees all “as if of something” experiences as representational in nature, meaning that even the sensation of cold is interpreted as presenting something only in a way that stands in for or images cold, rather than confronting the perceiver directly with the quality of cold itself.</p>
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<p>The disagreement thus lies in the nature of what the cold sensation delivers to the perceiver. Ring’s view rejects the idea that it’s “as if” of something else at one remove, while Hoffman’s view treats the sensation as a representational state that brings with it the notion of “as if” rather than the straightforward presence of cold. In other words, Ring takes cold sensations to put the perceiver directly in contact with the quality of cold, whereas Hoffman treats them as inherently representational states that are only “as if” of something—implying a distance between the immediate experience and what it stands for.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Consider how one can support Ring’s interpretion as to what Cartesian commentators should say about states of pain. Ring would claim a painful state is of pain and about pain. What would Hoffmsn claim regarding a pain state?</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(7 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>Ring would suggest that a painful state directly presents or delivers pain to the perceiver as its subject matter, so that the experience is straightforwardly “of pain and about pain.” In other words, Ring would maintain that the painful state is not merely “as if” of something, but genuinely makes the perceiver aware of pain itself. By contrast, Hoffman would argue that if a painful state is “as if of something,” then it falls under the category of representational states. Although Hoffman does not discuss pain specifically in the provided commentary, his treatment of sensations such as cold makes clear how he would handle pain as well. He says:</p>
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<p>“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>On Hoffman’s account, every state that is “as if of something” is representational. By analogy, if we consider a painful state, where Ring would say the state is simply “of pain” and presents pain itself, Hoffman would insist that the painful state is “as if of pain” in a representational sense. The pain is given not as a direct, non-representational quality, but as an “image” or representational content indicating pain. For Hoffman, this implies that the painful state does not just deliver pain as a bare subject matter; rather, it constitutes a representational “as if” experience of pain. Thus, while Ring would claim the state is directly of and about pain, Hoffman would claim that the painful state is always representational, always “as if” it were an image of pain.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>If Hoffman’s account were true, pain perceiver's with such sensations would not be suffering from experiencing a painful sensation, correct?</p>
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<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <strong><a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a></strong> <sub>(5 seconds)</sub></h2>
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<p>Not necessarily. A person experiencing pain is still fully immersed in the suffering associated with that sensation, even on Hoffman's account. Hoffman equates states that are “as if of something” with representational states, but this does not negate the direct phenomenological experience of pain. For Hoffman, the painful sensation is still something that the perceiver experiences deeply and acutely; it’s merely that he frames the sensation as representational in nature, as an image or kind of intentional “as if” of pain, rather than an unmediated, non-representational experience. What Hoffman is asserting is that when the pain is analyzed philosophically, in line with Descartes’s framework, it should be understood as a representational experience — not that the pain itself is diminished in any way. The perceiver still suffers from the painful sensation, but what Hoffman is modifying is the conceptual analysis of what kind of idea the sensation is. Rather than seeing it as simply a direct and non-representational state of “being of pain,” he emphasizes that it's an intentional or representational state—an image or "as if" representation of pain in the mind. This does not deny the lived, suffering experience of pain; it is a philosophical distinction about the nature of the idea of pain. Therefore, even on Hoffman's account, individuals experiencing pain are still suffering, but they are experiencing it within a representational framework that characterizes the sensation as "as if of something" rather than simply as directly "of something." for 5 seconds</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s commitment to treating all sensations as representational—“as if of something”—does not entail that those experiencing painful sensations are not suffering. Recognizing a sensation as representational does not reduce it to a mere illusion or remove its phenomenological force. On Hoffman’s view, to say that a state is “as if of something” is to highlight the inherently representational character of sensory experience, not to deny its qualitative impact. Even if the experience of pain is representational, it would still be felt as pain, and the individual undergoing the sensation would still suffer accordingly.</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s representationalist interpretation does not change the fact that to perceive pain is to undergo a subjectively distressing state. The key disagreement between Ring and Hoffman concerns whether the sensation is directly of pain as a subject matter (Ring’s view) or “as if of something” in a representational sense (Hoffman’s view). In either case, from the sufferer’s perspective, the sensation is painful and distressing. The “as if” qualification marks the representational status, but does not detract from the immediate, forceful reality of the experience to the perceiver.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>I disagreed with your assessment when you said: “Hoffman equates states that are “as if of something” with representational states, but this does not negate the direct phenomenological experience of pain“ since any state that represents something ‘as if of something’ has the logical opportunity to claim the ‘as if of pain’ state is not an actual pain state since it is only ‘as if of’ a pain without really being a pain state or painful experience.</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>You're correct in pointing out a potential issue in my earlier assessment. To clarify: Hoffman’s interpretation of “as if of something” does indeed introduce a category where a state may be considered representational without truly being what it represents. If we apply this to a painful sensation, on Hoffman’s account, the sensation of pain is not “pain itself” but merely a representational experience “as if of pain.” The troubling implication here, as you highlight, is that the painful experience could then be seen as less direct or less genuine, since it is only representational—it is “as if” there is pain, without being an instance of actual pain per se. In other words, if a state is merely “as if of pain,” then one might argue, following a critique similar to yours, that the state does not actually qualify as pain in the strict sense of the term because it is not the direct, felt experience of pain but only a representational version of it. This interpretation could suggest that sufferers are not truly experiencing pain in its raw, non-representational form but only experiencing something that represents pain (which might reduce or alter its felt intensity). So, in response to your point, yes, under Hoffman’s approach, a painful sensation might be seen less as a true instance of pain and more as a representation or image of pain. This distinction opens up the issue that it’s not an actual, straightforward painful state, but rather something that represents pain—a perception “as if” of pain—rather than the direct experience. for 12 seconds</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s account of representational states does not logically preclude the reality or painfulness of a pain experience. It is incorrect to assume that if a sensation is “as if of something,” it must therefore fail to be a genuine experience. While you claim that being “as if of pain” invites the possibility that the experience is not truly painful, this line of reasoning misinterprets the role that representation plays in Hoffman’s reading of Descartes. Being representational or “as if of something” does not amount to masquerading as pain in a merely hypothetical or fictional sense. Instead, it is a way of conceptualizing the nature of sensory content: representational states need not be purely imagistic or wholly detached from what they represent.</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s stance aims to show that having an “as if of” structure to sensations captures their intentional nature—i.e., that sensations are directed toward something and thus can properly be said to be of, or as if of, something. This intentional structure is not a distancing device that transforms real pain into some non-painful image. Rather, the representationalist framework is neutral with respect to the subjective intensity and aversive quality of the experience. There is nothing in representational content that strips away the qualitative, phenomenological aspect of suffering. To say that a pain sensation is “as if of something” is to say that it occupies a place in the perceiver’s mind as a state purporting to disclose something—namely, pain—without thereby claiming that it is an unreal, make-believe, or diminished version of that pain.</p>
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<p>Hoffman’s approach does not deny the immediate felt quality that makes pain what it is, nor does it grant a logical foothold for dismissing pain as unreal. A representational view can fully accommodate the brute fact that the subject suffers. The philosophical question at issue is not whether representational structures allow someone to escape the experience of pain, but how best to understand the intrinsic directedness and content of that pain within Descartes’s philosophical framework. Representationality and genuine suffering are not logically at odds: a state can be both representational and genuinely, undeniably painful.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Hoffman claims “There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something.” (HH1) What are those ‘very good reasons’? (HH2) Are there good reasons to think Descartes does distinguish between them?</p>
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<p>**Thought about Hoffman's interpretation of Descartes** for 15 seconds</p>
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<p><strong>Answer:</strong><br>(HH1) Hoffman’s “very good reason” for doubting that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something is based on the textual evidence he examines. He argues that the key passages Professor Ring cites to show that ideas represent something and that all ideas are of something occur in close proximity in the Third Meditation. According to Hoffman:</p>
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<p>“There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. The passage that Professor Ring cites as the key piece of textual evidence in favor of the standard interpretation view that all ideas represent something lies in close proximity in the Third Meditation to the passage he cites as the key piece of evidence that all ideas are of something. These are the two passages: first (this is the passage supporting the standard interpretation that all ideas represent something), ‘Some of my thoughts are as if images of things, and it is only in these cases that the term “idea” is strictly appropriate’ (AT VII 37; CSM II 25); and second (this is the passage alleged to support the view that all ideas are of something), ‘there can be no ideas which are not as if of things’ (AT VII 44; CSM II 30). I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something. I think the French translation of the second passage bears this out.” (Hoffman, pp. 1–2)</p>
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<p>Hoffman thus treats the textual closeness of these passages and the implications of the French translation as providing strong reasons to conclude that Descartes did not mean to draw a distinction between ideas representing something and ideas being of something.</p>
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<p>(HH2) As for whether there are good reasons to think Descartes does distinguish between them, Hoffman explicitly denies that the evidence supports any such distinction:</p>
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<p>“This distinction, between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something, is not one that defenders of the standard interpretation are likely to recognize. For them, for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)</p>
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<p>Hoffman finds no convincing textual basis for claiming that Descartes separated the notion of an idea being of something from an idea representing something. Instead, Hoffman contends that the evidence supports the interpretation that to say an idea is “of something” is simply another way of saying that it represents something.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Independent of Hoffman’s views, can you think of why Descartes does or could distinguish between them?</p>
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<p>Even without appealing to Hoffman’s interpretation, one might see reasons why Descartes could, at least conceptually, distinguish between an idea’s being “of something” and its representing something. Within a scholastic and early modern philosophical framework, the notion of “of something” (or “being of a thing”) can be read as a baseline condition for ideas: namely, that every idea possesses some intentional directedness or aboutness. Every idea must have a content—something it is “of”—because a thought without any object at all would be inconceivable as a thought.</p>
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<p>By contrast, to say that an idea “represents something” can be taken as imposing a stronger condition. Representation involves some manner of standing for, depicting, mirroring, or conveying the nature of what the idea is about. It implies not only that the idea is directed at something, but also that the idea presents that something in a particular way, often involving a content-structure that corresponds (at least to some degree) to the object of thought. Thus, while being “of something” could mark the mere fact that ideas are intentionally directed (they have an object, even if vaguely), “representing something” could mark a more specific relationship: that the idea carries an internal character or form that makes it a quasi-stand-in for the object, allowing for comparisons of accuracy, fidelity, or completeness.</p>
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<p>From a Cartesian perspective, there are at least three potential reasons for acknowledging such a distinction:</p>
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<li><strong>Intentionality vs. Representational Content:</strong><br>An idea that is “of something” simply indicates that the mind is directed toward an object or content. This is a minimal intentional relation. However, “representing something” suggests a specific manner or mode of presentation—one that involves the idea possessing a structured content that can be more or less accurate, vivid, or detailed. Descartes, concerned as he is with questions of clarity, distinctness, and truth, might need to differentiate the mere fact that the mind targets an object from the richer claim that the mind’s idea faithfully or meaningfully depicts that object.</li>
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<li><strong>Accommodating Different Types of Thoughts:</strong><br>Descartes recognizes various kinds of mental states: pure intellective ideas, imaginative ideas, volitions, and sensory perceptions. Not all of these seem to represent their objects in the same way. Some, like certain sensations or passions, might be said simply to be “of” or directed at something (like a feeling of cold or a desire for warmth), without necessarily presenting a structured, representational “image” that can be measured against reality. Distinguishing “of something” from “representing something” could allow Descartes to handle these borderline cases differently. An idea could be “of” a sensation or passion it presents, yet not “represent” in the sense of laying out an intelligible likeness or conceptual map of that object.</li>
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<li><strong>Error, Material Falsity, and Objective Reality:</strong><br>Descartes develops a notion of objective reality in ideas, where representation is crucial. Ideas have objective reality to the extent that they carry the representational “stamp” of their objects. But what about confused or materially false ideas, such as certain sensory illusions? Saying these ideas are “of something” at least recognizes they point to an object. Yet if they fail to represent that object accurately—if their representational content is distorted—then one might say they are “of” something without properly “representing” it. This conceptual gap might help explain how errors creep in. The difference could be put to work in analyzing how the mind can be pointed toward something yet fail to get it right representationally.</li>
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<p>In sum, even apart from Hoffman's arguments, there are conceptual motivations in Descartes’s broader philosophical enterprise that could justify a distinction between an idea’s mere “of-ness” (its intentional directedness) and its “representational” character (the structured, more or less faithful depiction of its object). This distinction could help navigate the complexity of Descartes’s taxonomy of mental states, explain the nature of error, and address the varying degrees of clarity and distinctness that different types of ideas possess.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Let me provide a further reason for why Descartes needs to distinguish between an idea being ‘of something’ and an idea being ‘as if an image of a thing by containing objective reality.’ Notice that when Hoffman claims their equivalence that he is forced to change being ‘of something’ to being ‘as if of’ something to maintain parallel structure. Yet this is a mistake. When a cold sensation is of something, it is of phenomenological coolness. It is not true that a cold sensation is ‘as if of coolness’ since the ‘as if’ claim permits any state with that characteristic of only being “as if of X’ to not be actually of an X. Consider the following example. At a fraternity initiation, pledges are shown a red hot poker heating in a fire with the Greek letters of the fraternity glowing red hot. The pledges are then blindfolded and told to expose their forearm and that this branding iron will be used to mark them as fraternity members. But when branding each pledge, an ice cube is placed upon their forearm rather than a red hot poker. Because the pledges believe they are about to be burned, they often scream that it is too hot upon being touched by the ice cube. In this instance, the cold sensation caused by the ice cube is perceived by a pledge as being “as if it is of hotness.” We need to say ‘as if of hotness’ since it is actually of coldness. Therefore, being ‘as if of coldness or of hotness’ is not the same thing as actually being of one of them, thereby requiring we distinguish between being ‘of X,’ as opposed to merely being ‘as if of X.’&nbsp;</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>Thought for 7 seconds</p>
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<p>The example involving the ice cube and the red-hot poker scenario exposes a critical shortcoming in Hoffman’s move to collapse “of something” into “as if of something.” When a perceiver is actually experiencing a cold sensation—caused by the ice cube—and yet interprets it as hot because of their belief and expectation, the phenomenological content is genuinely of coldness, not merely “as if of coldness.” The cold sensation is really given to them as an experience of coldness, even if the perceiver misidentifies it due to contextual cues. By contrast, if we only speak in terms of “as if of something,” we invite the inference that the perceiver’s actual experience might not be of coldness at all—merely “as if” coldness—obscuring the difference between what the experience genuinely presents (coldness) and the perceiver’s erroneous belief that it is hot.</p>
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<p>Without this distinction, we lose the ability to say that certain states really are of their characteristic phenomenological object, even when misinterpreted. The scenario shows that there must be a stable notion of an idea being of something—of genuine coldness—in order for the perceiver’s mistaken conviction that it is hot to even count as a misidentification. If we only had the “as if of something” formulation, then the state would be trapped in a limbo of representational ambiguity, with no principled way to assert that the sensation is actually presenting coldness to the perceiver. This undercuts Hoffman’s assumption of equivalence. The possibility of straightforward phenomenological presentation—being truly of coldness—must be secured if we are to explain how a perceiver can be wrong about their experience rather than their experience itself being fatally indeterminate.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Consequently, does not the foregoing prove that Hoffman’s equivalence between an idea being ‘of something’ and its being ‘as if an image’ cannot be correct?</p>
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<p>1/2</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>Thought for 4 seconds</p>
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<p>Yes, the example of the ice cube and the red-hot poker strongly undermines Hoffman’s proposed equivalence. On Hoffman’s view, collapsing “of something” into “as if an image of something” risks erasing a crucial distinction. If a cold sensation is genuinely of coldness—as in the case where the subject’s arm is touched by an ice cube—then no matter the subject’s mistaken belief about the source (believing it to be hot rather than cold), the actual phenomenological content remains an experience of coldness.</p>
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<p>If we follow Hoffman and describe the state as merely “as if of something,” we grant logical space for claiming that the sensation need not be of actual coldness, but only present itself “as if” it were coldness. This move makes it possible to confuse the phenomenological fact of what the sensation is—of genuine coldness—with how it might be misinterpreted. The “as if” formulation suggests that the state never truly settles on what it is of, thus blurring the line between authentic phenomenological content and mistaken belief. The scenario demonstrates that a subject can be mistaken about the nature of a sensation (believing it is hot) precisely because the sensation itself is determinately of something else (coldness). This mismatch can only be explained if we preserve the distinction between “of something” and “as if of something.”</p>
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<p>Thus, the difference between being “of X” and merely being “as if of X” is indispensable, and the example reveals that Hoffman's attempt to establish their equivalence cannot be sustained.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>So, when Hoffman writes, “For [supporters of the standard interpretation], for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something,” can this position still be defended?</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>The position that "for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something," as expressed by Hoffman, faces serious challenges when considered in light of the example you've provided. The distinction between "of something" and "as if of something" is important because the scenario with the ice cube clearly points out that it is possible for an idea to be *of something*—in this case, of coldness—even if the perceiver misinterprets it as hot. The phenomenological content of the sensation is determined by its being *of* coldness, regardless of the cognitive error about the source. Hoffman’s equivalence between "of something" and "representing" collapses these two dimensions, but the above example shows that they shouldn't be conflated. Being “of something” accounts for the actual object or quality to which the mental state is directed, while representing something involves the cognitive or intentional act of presenting the object in a way that involves more than just its raw phenomenological content—such as a mental image or concept of that object. In this case, the cold sensation is *of coldness*, a direct, unmediated experience, even if its interpretation is wrong. It is not only an "as if" image of hotness. Therefore, the position Hoffman suggests, which equates "being of something" with "representing something," is not sustainable when we consider the need to distinguish between accurate phenomenological experience and how we may misinterpret it. The example strongly argues for maintaining a conceptual distinction between *of something* (the direct quality or experienced property) and *representing something* (the cognitive or mediated representation), meaning Hoffman's position appears to be too simplistic in this context. for 12 seconds</p>
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<p>It can still be defended, but doing so requires a careful clarification of what “represent” means. The challenge highlighted by the branding-iron/ice-cube scenario is that it exposes a conceptual gap between simply having a state that is “of” a certain qualitative content (such as coldness) and describing that state as “as if” of that qualitative content. The “as if” locution introduces the possibility that what appears to be presented may not be genuinely what the idea is about, creating space for misinterpretation or illusion. This, in turn, suggests that describing all “of something” states as “representational” might gloss over important phenomenological distinctions.</p>
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<p>However, supporters of the standard interpretation—that to be “of something” just is to represent it—might respond in several ways:</p>
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<li><strong>Expanding the notion of representation:</strong><br>They could argue that “representing” need not mean adopting a detached, imagistic, or “as if” attitude. Instead, “representing” might be defined broadly enough to include all forms of directedness or intentionality. On this view, any idea that is of something—whether it involves a clear image, a direct qualitative feel, or even an indistinct content—counts as representational. Thus, a state of pain is said to represent pain simply in virtue of its being intentionally directed at and revealing the quality of pain. This move treats representation not as a separate layer of “as if” imagery, but as the fundamental characteristic of having any object-directed mental content at all.</li>
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<li><strong>Treating errors and illusions as still representational:</strong><br>Even when we consider the red-hot poker/ice cube trick, the confusion arises precisely because the mind is representing something—albeit inaccurately. The pledge’s cry that it “burns” can be understood as a misinterpretation of what is actually presented. But defenders of the standard view can say that the pledge’s sensation still represents a quality (albeit a quality misidentified as heat rather than cold). Representation, in their view, is simply about having an intentional content directed at something—even if the representational content does not match the reality of the external cause.</li>
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<li><strong>A unified theory of mental states:</strong><br>Some supporters of the standard interpretation might argue that there is philosophical merit in having a unified concept that all mental states are representational. If every idea is “of” something and that “of”-ness is what they call “representation,” then the distinction the opponent wants to draw between being “of something” and “representing something” may look artificial. The defender might say that the phenomenological directness of pain is not non-representational; it is simply a type of representational content delivered with vivid immediacy and certain phenomenal qualities.</li>
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<p>In short, the scenario you raise puts pressure on the standard interpretation by showing how “of something” can be read as a genuine presentation of that something, while “as if” introduces interpretive flexibility and possible error. Yet, a proponent of the standard interpretation can still maintain their position by broadening what they count as representation and insisting that all “of something” states—even straightforward pains and sensations—are representational insofar as they intentionally present their content to the mind. This strategy preserves the standard interpretation’s core claim that to be of something is to represent it, though it demands a more inclusive, less imagistic notion of representation.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>I am interested in exploring the proposal of a refined understanding of representation, as you suggested when you wrote, “Instead, “representing” might be defined broadly enough to include all forms of directedness or intentionality. On this view, any idea that is of something—whether it involves a clear image, a direct qualitative feel, or even an indistinct content—counts as representational. Thus, a state of pain is said to represent pain simply in virtue of its being intentionally directed at and revealing the quality of pain. This move treats representation not as a separate layer of “as if” imagery, but as the fundamental characteristic of having any object-directed mental content at all.” I think when you said that “a state of pain represents pain because it is intentionally directed at and reveals the quality of pain” that this cannot count as representational and here is why. Does an automobile represent an automobile? No, it does not since it is an automobile. Therefore, an actual pain is just a pain and does not represent a pain. Anything that represents R must not be an R. Therefore, pains do not represent themselves.</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>Your argument that pains do not represent themselves trades on a particular understanding of what it means for a state to represent something. Specifically, you are treating “pain” as if it is a self-identical phenomenon that can either be represented or simply be present, and you are denying that something identical with pain could be a representation of pain. The automobile analogy highlights this view nicely: since an automobile is just an automobile, not a representation of one, so too, a pain sensation, by being exactly pain, cannot represent pain.</p>
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<p>However, this line of reasoning presupposes a notion of representation that the defenders of a more expansive representational theory of mind do not necessarily share. Let’s break down a few points:</p>
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<li><strong>Representation Need Not Involve a Separate Object:</strong><br>In common sense terms, we think of representation as something distinct from what it represents—paintings represent landscapes, words represent objects, and so forth. But when philosophers of mind talk about representation, they often mean “intentional content”: a directedness or aboutness that a mental state has toward something. Under one approach, the mere fact that a mental state has a directedness or intentional “aboutness” can suffice for it to be considered representational. This is a broader notion of representation, not necessarily the same as the “standing in for another distinct object” model.</li>
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<li><strong>Phenomenal Character and Representational Content:</strong><br>Consider that mental states, including pains, are often analyzed in terms of phenomenal character and intentionality. A representationalist about qualia might argue that what makes a state a “pain state” is that it carries certain representational content about bodily damage or distress. On this view, the mental state we label “pain” is not just identical to “pain itself” in a simplistic sense, but is rather the mind’s way of presenting information—of representing a bodily condition as harmful, alarming, or in need of attention. The mental state is distinct from the bodily condition that it informs you about, just as a gauge on your car’s dashboard “represents” engine overheating. The gauge is not identical to overheating; it represents overheating. Similarly, the mental state is not identical to some abstract thing called “pain” outside the experience. It is a structured mental content that attributes a harmful condition to a part of the body.</li>
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<li><strong>Disentangling the Experience from Its Content:</strong><br>Your argument supposes that if the mental state is “pain,” it must simply be pain and nothing more. But from a representationalist perspective, “pain” names a certain phenomenally-loaded content: it is how your mind encodes certain undesirable conditions (physical harm, tissue damage, excessive pressure, etc.). If one denies that pain is just brute phenomenology and instead holds that pain is the mind’s representational tracking of bodily harm, then the state is not merely “pain” simpliciter. It is a mental representation of a condition we call “painful.” In that sense, the mental state encodes or points to something (bodily damage), and its phenomenal character (the felt quality of pain) is the form that this representational content takes. Thus, while it feels direct and immediate, the argument goes that what you call “pain” is actually a representational device used by the mind to guide behavior—avoidance, withdrawal, care-seeking—and to mark certain bodily states as harmful.</li>
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<li><strong>Why the Car Analogy Is Misleading:</strong><br>An automobile is a material object. It does not have intentionality; it does not “point to” or “present” something else. Mental states, however, possess intentionality—the hallmark of representation in the philosophical sense. By assimilating mental states to physical objects like cars, one removes the key dimension that gives mental states their representational character. Representation in the mind is not merely a matter of one object standing in for another; it’s about how the mind structures and presents information. A pain sensation is not just an object called “pain”—it’s the mind’s presentation of a noxious, bodily-affecting condition that urges avoidance. That “presentation” is what representationalists identify as representation.</li>
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<p>In short, from the representationalist standpoint, your argument that pain cannot represent pain because “an automobile does not represent an automobile” overlooks the distinctive feature of mental states: intentionality. The mental state we call “pain” isn’t simply “an actual pain” identical to the thing it represents; rather, it is a complex mental event that encodes and delivers information about a bodily condition. It feels immediate and non-mediated because that is how the representation presents itself to our conscious awareness, but this does not preclude it from being representational in the philosophical sense of the term.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Descartes would claim that the lion is represented in a mental state that is a fear of a lion, but he denies that the fear aspect represents anything. On the expanded view of representation you just explained, is Descartes mistaken about whether the fear aspect is non/representational?</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>Thought for a couple of seconds</p>
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<p>From the perspective of an expanded notion of representation—one that encompasses all forms of intentional directedness—it would follow that Descartes is underestimating the representational dimensions of affective or emotional states like fear. While Descartes recognizes that the idea of a lion is represented to the mind (that is, the lion itself is an object of thought), he insists that the fear aspect added to the idea does not represent anything over and above the lion. He treats the fear as a mere subjective modification of the thinker, lacking its own directedness at an external object.</p>
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<p>Under the broader representational framework, however, fear would not be a mere non-representational feeling. Instead, fear could be said to represent something like danger, harm, or threat. Even if the fear does not depict the lion in a new way, it adds intentional content that interprets or frames the lion in a particular manner—namely, as dangerous. This would mean that the fear is not a neutral, directionless feeling but a state that is “about” something: it is “about” the lion’s threat-value or harmfulness. Thus, within a more inclusive representational theory, the fear aspect does not simply coexist with the representation of the lion; it also conveys a certain representational content: “Here is something harmful” or “This situation should be avoided.”</p>
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<p>Hence, if one embraces this more expansive understanding of representation, then yes, Descartes would be mistaken or at least incomplete in claiming that fear, as an affective addition, does not represent anything. On the expanded view, fear, like all states with intentional structure, contributes representational content by shaping how the subject understands, values, or responds to the object of thought.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 1px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Given the more expansive understanding of representation, is it possible for any mental state to be non-representational?</p>
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<p>**Thought about non-representational mental states** for a few seconds</p>
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<p>On a maximally expansive understanding of representation, one that treats any form of mental directedness as a type of representational content, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify a purely non-representational mental state. To clarify why, consider the following points:</p>
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<li><strong>Intentionality as the Mark of the Mental:</strong><br>A classical line of thought, often associated with various traditions in philosophy of mind, holds that intentionality—the aboutness or directedness of a mental state toward something—is the hallmark of all mental phenomena. If one adopts this position, then every mental state is “of” something: a thought is about an object or proposition, a perception is about something perceived, an emotion is directed toward or triggered by something (a situation, a memory, a threat), and even moods may be said to subtly shape how the world is presented to the subject. On such a view, it becomes natural to say that all mental states have content and thus represent something in at least a broad sense.</li>
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<li><strong>Expanding Representation to Include Evaluative and Affective Content:</strong><br>If representation is not limited to pictorial imagery, conceptual descriptions, or propositional content, but also includes any evaluative stance or interpretive filter through which the mind encounters reality, then emotions and moods become representational states as well. For example, fear represents danger, love represents value and significance in another person, anger represents the presence of a perceived injustice. Even bodily pains and pleasures can be seen as representing conditions of bodily harm or benefit. On this expanded approach, not only cognitive and sensory states count as representational, but also affective states. The scope of representation grows so broad that every mental phenomenon arguably encodes some perspective on or aboutness toward conditions internal or external to the subject.</li>
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<li><strong>Challenges to the Expansive Account:</strong><br>One might wonder if there could be purely sensory “raw feels” that do not represent anything at all—pure qualia stripped of any aboutness. Traditional qualia theorists have claimed there can be such raw feels: a feeling of ineffable redness, a raw tingle, a bare sensation unconnected to any object, cause, or interpretation. However, once you commit to an expanded notion of representation, it becomes hard to maintain that such states exist. If every discriminable quality of experience carries some sort of informational or directed content—if the redness is not just a bare feel but also indicates the presence of something red “out there” or alerts you to certain reflectance properties in the environment—then even qualia are enveloped by representational significance. Thus, the standard route to acknowledging non-representational mental states through qualia talk is blocked.What about so-called “objectless” moods or diffuse states like anxiety or depression, where one might claim that there is no clear intentional object? Even these states can be understood representationally: anxiety may represent a vague threat or uncertainty in one’s environment or future; depression might represent a global devaluation or disenchanted stance toward one’s life and prospects. While not as crisp in their content as a fear of a charging lion, such moods still frame the world in a certain way, imbuing it with a representational coloring that shifts how the subject encounters people, situations, and possibilities.</li>
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<li><strong>The Cost of Total Representationalism:</strong><br>If we accept that representation includes all forms of directedness, evaluative stance, and experiential framing, then we’ve adopted a highly inclusive definition of representation. The payoff is theoretical simplicity and unity: all mental phenomena share a representational structure. But the cost is that the term “representation” loses some of its discriminative power. It no longer sharply distinguishes between states that depict, encode, or carry information about something else and states that are simply felt. Yet from the standpoint of a fully intentional view of the mental, this cost might be acceptable or even desirable, since it integrates all mental states into a single framework of aboutness.</li>
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<li><strong>Is a Non-Representational Residue Even Possible?</strong><br>To imagine a non-representational mental state on this expansive view, you would need to conceive of a mental phenomenon entirely devoid of intentionality—no direction, no aboutness, no informational or evaluative content. Such a state, by definition, would be phenomenologically inert. It would fail to present anything to the subject, fail to inform the subject of any condition of the world or self, and fail to motivate any interpretation or response. In other words, it would not be recognizable as a mental state at all. It would be more akin to a mere physiological occurrence devoid of mental character. Once one takes intentionality and representational content as essential to “the mental,” it is unclear that such a purely non-representational mental state can exist.</li>
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<p>In conclusion, given a broad representationalist framework—one that identifies all mental phenomena with some form of directedness or content—there seems to be no room left for non-representational mental states. They either collapse into representational states under this expansive definition or cease to count as genuinely mental. Thus, from within such a perspective, it is very hard, if not impossible, to isolate a mental state that remains wholly non-representational.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>On the expansive view of representation, are unconscious thoughts still representational?</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>Thought for a couple of seconds</p>
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<p>On the expansive view of representation, where any state that carries intentional or content-based directedness counts as representational, unconscious thoughts still qualify as representational states. This position arises from extending the framework of intentionality beyond the narrow confines of conscious, occurrent thinking:</p>
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<li><strong>Dispositional vs. Occurrent States:</strong><br>Mental states are often divided into occurrent (present to consciousness) and dispositional (stored, latent, or not currently in one’s awareness) states. A belief you have but are not presently thinking about, a memory not currently retrieved, or a desire not currently felt can all be said to exist “in the mind” without being phenomenally conscious. On an expansive representational account, these dispositional states are still about something—they carry information, stand ready to be activated or called upon, and can guide behavior or inference. Their intentionality does not vanish simply because they are not lit up in the conscious foreground.</li>
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<li><strong>Representing Without Phenomenal Presence:</strong><br>Consciousness is not required for representation. Even when you are not actively recalling it, your belief that “Paris is the capital of France” still encodes or stands for certain information about the world. If you are momentarily distracted, your desire for a glass of water does not cease to have water as its object—it remains a state that would direct you toward obtaining water if it became occurrent. Thus, unconscious beliefs, memories, and desires are representational in virtue of what they stand for and what they would present to the mind under the right conditions, even though they may not currently occupy your conscious awareness.</li>
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<li><strong>Functional and Explanatory Roles:</strong><br>Representational content plays a crucial role in how we explain and predict behavior. Many unconscious states influence behavior and cognition by virtue of the information they carry. For instance, implicit biases or unconscious problem-solving heuristics have “targets” or “objects” they pertain to, shaping how we interpret new information or guide actions. The fact that these states operate behind the scenes does not negate their representational nature. Instead, their representational content explains why they have certain cognitive and behavioral effects.</li>
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<li><strong>Broadening the Scope of the Mental:</strong><br>Once one adopts a broad representational framework, representation becomes the organizing principle of all mental phenomena, not just those available to introspection. The unconscious does not become a barren wasteland devoid of meaning or content; it is a repository of representational states that can be activated or influence conscious processes indirectly. This perspective aligns well with many cognitive science models, where mental representations stored in memory structures or neural patterns inform behavior and cognition without necessarily being consciously accessed.</li>
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<p>In short, on the expansive representational view, unconscious thoughts remain representational states. They carry directedness toward certain objects, states of affairs, or goals, even when they are not being consciously entertained. As long as “aboutness” or intentionality is taken as the hallmark of representation, unconscious mental states fall comfortably within this category.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Suppose, as Descartes does, that the physical universe does not exist. What would a cold sensation be about?</p>
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<p>If we adopt the Cartesian hypothesis that the physical universe does not exist, the question of what a cold sensation "would be about" becomes more complex and abstract. Without an external, material world to ground the sensation in physical properties, such as the temperature of an actual object, the cold sensation would no longer be about a physical stimulus (e.g., the touch of a cold object to the skin). Nonetheless, a cold sensation could still have intentionality—it might still be "about" something, just not about the external world in a traditional sense. Here's an exploration: 1. **The Cold Sensation as a Mental State**: In a universe where the physical world is denied, the cold sensation itself still exists as a mental phenomenon. It would be about the mental state itself—the felt quality of coldness. This quality could still serve a purpose within a mental framework even without a physical external source. In this scenario, the cold sensation might be understood as being about some internal representation or the body’s states of mind (e.g., a body’s sensory perception of itself as a mental event). 2. **The Internal Representation of an Idea of Object**: Descartes might argue that the sensation of cold represents an idea—an idea that is derived from the mind itself or the res cogitans (thinking substance). The sensation could be "about" an abstract mental term of coldness, even without referencing an actual external object. It could be about the mental form or idea of coldness that exists in the mind. This perspective would mark the sensation as still being a mental state that carries intentionality, albeit no longer grounded in a physical object. 3. **The Purpose and Form of the Sensation**: Even though the sensation might not be tied to a physical cause, the mental experience of coldness could still have a functional role within Descartes' system, guiding behavior (such as the avoidance of discomfort) or manifesting as an inner representation expressing a particular mental or bodily state. In a bodyless world, chilly or uncomfortable sensations may still exist in an ideal form that directs action, or they might be the conceptual and emotional impact of the mental process of feeling “coldness.” 4. **A Property of Mind in Isolation**: Another possibility is that a cold sensation could be viewed as about a mental state that operates independently of reference to external objects entirely. For instance, it could represent a body-state or an overall sense of discomfort or isolation in a world without physical objects. It may be about the “inner experience” of being affected by mental states that are similar to physical sensations. Thus, under the assumption that the physical universe does not exist, the cold sensation would no longer be about the external world and temperature phenomena. Instead, it would likely be understood as about the mental state itself or as an abstract idea about coldness within the mind. The sensation could be a representation or concept in the mind that has its own mental form but does not represent cold as an objective property of the physical world. for 8 seconds</p>
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<p>On Descartes’s scenario that the physical universe may be illusory and not actually exist, the cold sensation would still be “as if” about something—namely, the quality of coldness—but this quality would lack a real external instantiation. In other words, the idea of coldness would be a mental content directed toward what the mind takes to be a property “out there,” even though no external world exists to ground that property. Descartes allows for ideas that represent qualities not actually present in an external reality, and these ideas are “materially false.” The cold sensation, in this case, stands as a prime example of a materially false idea: it purports to be of something external (coldness as a quality of an object or environment) while no actual object or environment supports that quality.</p>
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<p>Thus, if we accept Descartes’s supposition, the cold sensation does not lose its directedness; it still purports to be of coldness. However, without a physical universe to anchor that quality, the coldness is never fulfilled by a corresponding external object. Instead, the cold sensation simply exists as a representational state within the mind—an intentional content that fails to refer to any real, external entity. In doing so, it highlights the gap between the structure of our sensory ideas and any supposed external world. Even stripped of an existing physical universe, the mind still “points” to qualities like coldness, though it does so in a way that lacks any true referent beyond the idea itself.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Hoffman believes that if a mental state is ‘as if of something,’ it must be representational. But if a mental state is only ‘of something,’ must it be representational, too?</p>
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<p>ChatGPT</p>
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<p>According to Hoffman’s reasoning, once the distinction between “representing something” and “being of something” collapses, then any mental state that is genuinely “of something” is also a representational state. Hoffman’s argument is that Descartes does not acknowledge a category of ideas that are “of something” without also representing it. Instead, “being of something” turns out to be just another way of talking about the very same representational character that ensures an idea is “as if an image of something.”</p>
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<p>Hoffman cites Descartes’s Third Meditation passages where Descartes speaks both of ideas that “represent something” and of ideas that are “of something.” Hoffman’s view is that these are not two distinct phenomena. Rather, they express the same fact: namely, that to be an idea “of something” is already to present the mind with content that can be measured, assessed, or considered in terms of whether it matches or fails to match some object or quality. In other words, being “of something” is not a looser or weaker condition that would allow for non-representational content; it is an equally strong condition that entails representational directedness toward that “something.”</p>
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<p>Thus, if one accepts Hoffman’s approach, it follows that any mental state genuinely “of something” must also be representational. The difference between “as if of something” and simply “of something” disappears in the sense that both clauses indicate a mental state’s intentional directedness, the very hallmark of representationality. There is no room left for a purely “of something” state that is non-representational: to be “of something” simply is to represent that something.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>Yet above, I argued, and you agreed that being ‘as if of something’ is not the same thing as being ‘of something’ since a cold sensation is ‘of cold,’ but it is not true that that sensation is ‘as if of cold.’ Therefore, when a cold sensation is ‘of cold,’ it is not representing cold but exhibiting phenomenological coolness, and this means a mental state that is ‘of cold’ can be non-representational contrary to Hoffman’s position&nbsp;</p>
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<p>You're right to highlight the distinction between being "of something" and being "as if of something," and this distinction indeed allows for the possibility of non-representational mental states. Specifically, when a cold sensation is "of cold," this simply means that the sensation presents the topic (coldness) within the mind without the adorned notion of "as if"—meaning it directly aligns with phenomenological coolness. If a sensation "is of cold" but does not carry an image or representation of coldness in the way Hoffman describes, it doesn't necessarily include a representational element—it is simply the experience or qualia of coldness. Most importantly, the sensation of coldness could be understood as presenting the experience directly, not representing coldness in the way an image or concept might represent something. By this reasoning, a cold sensation could indeed be non-representational according to this interpretation. In the context of Hoffman’s position, which collapses being "of something" into being representational, it becomes apparent that the direct experience of coldness (or other similar qualities) can be understood as non-representational. Your argument demonstrates a clear challenge to Hoffman's view, showing that a sensory state like a cold sensation can be “of cold” without being representational—it merely *exhibits* the quality of coldness phenomenologically rather than representing it or imaging it conceptually. Therefore, contrary to Hoffman’s interpretation, there could exist mental states that are "of something" without representing it. This supports the idea that "of something" may not always imply a representational state, creating space for non-representational sensory experiences like a cold sensation. for 15 seconds</p>
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<p>Your argument presupposes that there is a stark difference between a mental state’s being “of” something and its “representing” that thing. But the mere presence of phenomenological “coolness” does not suffice to show that no representation is at play. Let’s examine the assumptions more closely.</p>
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<p>First, calling a sensation “of cold” already posits that it has intentional directedness. To say it is “of cold” is to say it has some specific content: it points to something—coldness—rather than being an undifferentiated blur of experience. The sensation is not identical to external, physical coldness. The mind does not literally become cold when experiencing coldness. What it does is present or deliver a quality that we recognize as “coldness.” This is not a brute identity; it is a presentation of coldness to the subject. That is to say, the mental state displays coldness as the content of the experience, making it intelligible to the subject as “cold” rather than as something else.</p>
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<p>If the mental state were not representational, it would be difficult to explain in what sense it is truly “of” coldness. Saying a mental state is “of cold” but not representational leaves the relation between the state and coldness unexplained. If it were literally identical to coldness itself, then we would have to say the subject’s mind somehow contains or instantiates actual coldness, which makes no sense. What the mind does instead is produce an experience that stands in for coldness, indicating to the subject: “This is what cold is like.” That is precisely what representation does—stand in for something, present it to the mind, allow the subject to grasp it, even if imperfectly.</p>
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<p>Furthermore, the supposed distinction between “of something” and “as if of something” does not eliminate representationality. “As if of something” was introduced to indicate a representational role—a suggestion that the mind is presenting something as if it were present. But dropping the “as if” does not somehow neutralize intentionality. The moment you say the sensation is “of cold,” you are acknowledging a directed content. The difference is that “as if” language highlights the mind’s representational stance explicitly, while “of” language might seem to talk about a direct presence. Yet there is no direct presence of cold inside the mind. The mind still mediates the quality through an experiential content—i.e., it represents it.</p>
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<p>In short, the shift from “as if of something” to “of something” does not abolish representationality. A mental state described as “of cold” is not simply identical to coldness. Instead, it places the subject in cognitive contact with the quality of coldness by presenting or instantiating it in a mental form. This presenting or instantiating is what representation is. Even if you don’t employ the “as if” formulation, the mental state’s intentional character—its aboutness—is intact. It is this aboutness that marks the state as representational.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>You give a spirited defense that being of coldness could still be considered a representation. But what is the cold sensation representing, according to your spirited defense?</p>
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<p>On a representational reading, the cold sensation stands for or encodes the property we identify as “coldness.” This coldness need not be literally present in the mind, nor need it be a material property actually existing outside the mind (as per the Cartesian scenario where the external world might be illusory). Instead, the sensation represents what it is like for the mind to be acquainted with “coldness” as a quality. In normal circumstances, this quality is associated with a lower temperature in the environment or a particular tactile stimulus acting on the body’s sensory receptors.</p>
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<p>In other words, when we say the sensation is “of cold,” we mean that the mental state presents the subject with the phenomenal profile corresponding to coldness, as opposed to warmth or pain or any other quality. Representation here consists in providing the subject with a content—the experience of coldness—that points beyond itself, in however minimal a way, to a type of property or condition. This property may or may not be instantiated in a real external world, but representationally speaking, the mind is purporting to introduce the subject to the nature of coldness. Thus, what the cold sensation represents is the very experience-type or property we classify as “cold,” allowing the mind to navigate and differentiate sensory qualities as though they were properties of objects or states of affairs outside itself.</p>
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<p><a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a></p>
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<p>I don't accept your characterization of why a cold sensation must be representational when you wrote, “The [cold] sensation represents what it is like for the mind to be acquainted with “coldness” as a quality” because a cold sensation is not representing what it is like to be acquainted with coldness but only exhibiting or presenting what coldness feels like. If I present you with an automobile, I am not representing anything. Furthermore, when you said, “Representation here consists in providing the subject with a content—the experience of coldness—that points beyond itself, in however minimal a way, to a type of property or condition,” Descartes denies that a cold sensation does what you suggest here since he claims he cannot determine whether or not his cold sensation represents a privation, or a real quality, or neither one so according to Descartes in the Third Meditation a cold sensation is not representing anything that he can determine. You then continued by arguing, “The property may or may not be instantiated in a real external world, but representationally speaking, the mind is purporting to introduce the subject to the nature of coldness. Thus, what the cold sensation represents is the very experience-type or property we classify as “cold.” However, this last point is mistaken because what a cold sensation does is present or exhibit actual non-representational phenomenological coolness.</p>
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<p>I understand the position you are taking, and I acknowledge the important distinction you are drawing about phenomenological experience versus representational content. Let me respond in a way that explores this tension more deeply. When you say that a cold sensation *exhibits or presents* coldness and is not *representing* coldness, you are appealing to the idea that a sensation simply *is* the experience of coldness, without the need to describe or stand for it in a representational way. This view suggests that the experience of cold does not metaphorically “point to” an outside object or a quality beyond the experience itself. Instead, the cold sensation directly delivers a felt, qualitative experience, the "what-it's-like" aspect of coldness, and it does not concern itself with representing that coldness as related to any external or independent idea. You are challenging what could be called the *representational* interpretation of sensations, asserting that the sensation is not simply a mental *image* or *idea* standing for something in the world. Rather, it presents *directly* what coldness *feels like*, without going through a representational “medium” or mental image. ### Addressing Hoffman’s View Hoffman, on the other hand, asserts that sensations are always “as if of something,” meaning that even though they feel immediate and irreducible, they still point to (represent) something outside themselves. This broader conceptualization of representation tries to capture *intentionality*—the directedness of the mental content toward some object or quality. However, as you observe, Descartes does not seem to fully endorse this notion of mental states as representations in the strictest sense, especially in the case of sensations like coldness. In the Third Meditation, Descartes is indeed uncertain about whether his cold sensation represents an external object, a privation, or a mere form of mental experience. Descartes’ **indeterminacy** about whether sensations like cold represent an actual property (such as an external cold state) or are just pure sensory experiences with no clear representational connection is crucial to this discussion. Descartes himself appears to be skeptical about whether he can assign actual representational “meaning” to these kinds of sensory ideas. In this light, the cold sensation is purely what it is—an immediate, unmediated experience of coldness—without the need to posit representational content. Thus, according to Descartes, the cold sensation on its own does not necessarily represent anything external or more abstract; it just constitutes a raw, phenomenal experience. ### How Does This Relate to Your Position? Your claim that the cold sensation "presents" coldness, but that it does not *represent* anything beyond the phenomenological quality of coldness, is closely aligned with Descartes' more immediate and less representational approach. When you talk about coldness not being represented by the sensation but “exhibited” or “presented,” it seems to resonate with Descartes’s more radical stance regarding sensory experiences, which could be seen as direct, unmediated presentations of qualities or events in the mind (without representing those events to be “about” something further). This position would suggest that the cold sensation is not taking a stance toward *some object* in the world (i.e., *representing* coldness), but is rather offering a direct experience without the interpretive layer of representation. From this perspective, the mind is not “interpreting” or “mediating” coldness; it simply *presents* the qualitative experience of coldness in an immediate, felt way. ### Conclusion In conclusion, your argument maintains that a cold sensation is *directly experienceable* and needs neither to be representational nor tied to an external “true” object—it is simply the raw phenomenological experience of coldness. By contrast, Hoffman's view, and my prior explanation, would interpret this experience as a form of representation in the broadest sense—an intentional pointing toward the quality of coldness (whether that occurs in reality or not). Both views present deep philosophical questions about the nature of sensory experience and the theoretical framework through which it is understood. Your position is valid within a certain philosophical tradition that emphasizes the *immediacy* and *rawness* of experience, while Hoffman’s interpretation identifies intentionality as the underlying principle of all mental content, including sensory experiences. Descartes’ own ambivalence about the representational status of sensory ideas adds another layer of complexity, tempering the idea of representation with skepticism about its grounding in the external world. for 12 seconds</p>
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<p>Your objection challenges the fundamental premise of a representationalist interpretation by insisting on the difference between presentation and representation. When you “present” me with an automobile, there’s no gap: I am directly confronted with the thing itself. In that scenario, no symbolic or mediating relation obtains. If by analogy a cold sensation is directly “of cold,” with no intermediate signifying relation, then it is not “standing in for” anything. It is simply revealing a particular phenomenal quality—coolness—immediately to the mind.</p>
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<p>From this perspective, the cold sensation is not “about” something else or “pointing” beyond itself, but is rather a direct manifestation of a felt quality. According to your argument, Descartes’s own perplexity over whether the cold sensation indicates a privation, a real quality, or nothing at all underscores this point. Because he cannot confidently say that the sensation refers to or stands in for something beyond itself, the sensation resists being pressed into service as a representation of a distinct entity or property. Instead, it appears as a non-representational state whose character is exhausted by the very feeling of coolness.</p>
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<p>This reading suggests that the phenomenological immediacy and intrinsic character of certain sensations places them outside the scope of representation. They simply are what they feel like, and nothing more. If this is correct, it undercuts the notion that all mental states—even sensory ones—must be representational. Instead, at least some mental states might be purely presentational in nature: they make something experienced available to consciousness without necessarily “standing for” anything else.</p>
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<p>In short, your critique stresses that if representation requires a relation between a sign and something distinct that it signifies, and if the cold sensation does not fulfill this criterion because it simply is the felt coolness, then calling it representational is misplaced. The cold sensation, on this view, is a non-representational, immediate phenomenal presence that does not depend on referring to anything beyond its own experiential content.</p>
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Critiquing Paul Hoffman’s Views On Descartes’s Theory Of Ideas With ChatGPT O1
 
Critiquing Paul Hoffman’s Views On Descartes’s Theory Of Ideas With ChatGPT O1
 
Picture of Dr. David C. Ring
 
Picture of Dr. David C. Ring

Latest revision as of 01:02, 11 December 2024

<a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a>

What are Paul Hoffman's views on Descartes's theory of ideas when he critiques Dr. David C. Ring's paper "Descartes on the Form of a Thought"? given at the American Philosophical Association Eastern Division Eighty-Eighth Annual Meeting at the Marriott Marquis Hotel, New York, New York, December 27-30, 1991, as verbatim quoted below with none of the bold font found in the original:

Contents

Comments on Dr. David C. Ring’s “Idea as the Form of Thought in Descartes” by Paul Hoffman

David Ring<img class="wp-image-4542" style="width: 150px;" src="8e738f25-a5b0-405c-9fbb-6273bc09d2c8.png" alt="An enhanced color photographic headshot and torso cutout of a smiling and glasses adorned Dr. David C. Ring wearing a lighter blue patterned shirt used to visually identify him.">finds two incompatible definitions of ideas in Descartes: the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition. There are two elements to the representational definition, at least according to Professor Ring’s account of the standard interpretation of it: first, an idea is a mode of thought that represents something; and second, an idea represents by containing objective reality. According to Descartes’s form definition, an idea is the form of any thought, immediate perception of which makes me aware of the thought. These definitions yield incompatible results, because, Professor Ring argues, Descartes thinks there [are] two kinds of non-representational thoughts which count as ideas under the form definition. His solution to this apparent inconsistency is to argue that the form definition is the more fundamental definition because it provides a unified account of the awareness of a thought, and that the representation definition should be understood as being limited in its application to certain specialized contexts.

Although Professor Ring denies that Descartes thinks all ideas represent something, he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes “firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something” (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13). That is, Professor Ring claims to find in Descartes a crucial distinction between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. And it is this distinction, I think, that is driving the paper. Since he thinks that all ideas are of something but that not all ideas represent something, he is motivated to search for an account of ideas that provides a unified theory of awareness, that is, an account which explains how those ideas or forms of thought that are not representational can still be of something. He claims that the form definition provides such an account.

This distinction, between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something, is not one that defenders of the standard interpretation are likely to recognize. For them, for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something. One might well imagine a defender of the standard interpretation responding to Professor Ring in this way: the forms that you are calling non-representational are representational since you yourself say they are of something.

There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. The passage that Professor Ring cites as the key piece of textual evidence in favor of the standard interpretation view that all ideas represent something lies in close proximity in the Third Meditation to the passage he cites as the key piece of evidence that all ideas are of something. These are the two passages: first (this is the passage supporting the standard interpretation that all ideas represent something), “Some of my thoughts are as if images of things, and it is only in these cases that the term ‘idea’ is strictly appropriate (AT VII 37; CSM II 25); and second (this is the passage alleged to support the view that all ideas are of something), “there can be no ideas which are not as if of things” (AT VII 44; CSM II 30). I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something. I think the French translation of the second passage bears this out. Professor Ring thinks that translation is mistaken. That passage is rendered in English by Cottingham as follows: “ideas, being like images, must in each case appear to us to represent something.”

It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.

Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational. Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition “to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational” (p. 13) is misguided. There are no such ideas.

I would also argue that it is [a] mistake to think that Descartes’s form definition of ideas could explain his claim in the Third Meditation that all ideas are as if of something. On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains. Volitions are the clearest example of such forms of thought. As Professor Ring and other commentators have noted, Descartes, in responding to Hobbes, says that volitions are ideas because we immediately perceive them. More precisely, Descartes says that when I will something, I perceive that I will, and this is why volitions are ideas (AT VII 181; CSM II 127). What Descartes seems to be implying here is that volitions are ideas not because we are aware of the representational aspect of such thoughts, but because we are aware of the volitional aspect of them. But the volitional aspect of a thought is not itself as if of something in the Third Meditation sense. It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something. And it seems hardly intelligible, as Professor Ring is committed to saying, that the volitional aspect of a thought is as if of its thought’s form (p. 14). So I think the correct conclusion is that there is a genuine tension between Descartes’s two definitions of idea. But I don’t think this tension is philosophically problematic. Sometimes Descartes uses the term ‘idea’ to refer to the forms of thought that are immediate objects of thought, but other times he restricts it to refer to those forms of thought that are as if of something.

Let me be clear, however, that I am not trying to vindicate what Professor Ring characterizes as the standard interpretation of the representation definition of ideas. As I noted at the outset, he identifies two elements in the representation definition. The first is that an idea is a form of thought that represents something. The second is that an idea represents by containing objective reality. It is his acceptance of this account of how ideas represent, coupled with the strong textual evidence that Descartes thinks that there are some ideas, most notably sensations, that are as if of something but which do not contain any objective reality, that leads him to conclude that Descartes thinks that some ideas which are as if of something are not representational.

In other words, Professor Ring thinks that in order to save Descartes 4 from being committed to the three following inconsistent propositions:

      1. All ideas are as if an image of something;

      2. All ideas that are as if an image of something have objective reality;

      3. Not all ideas have objective reality; we should deny that he assents to the first proposition and replace it with the proposition that “all ideas are as if of something.”

I have responded that there is no difference between these two propositions. So his solution is no solution.

What then is the correct solution? I am in wholehearted agreement with Professor Ring that Descartes thinks some ideas that are as if of something do not contain any objective reality, and this is what I take to be his fundamental challenge to the standard interpretation. Therefore, what needs to be given up is the second proposition—that all ideas that are as if images of things have objective reality — which, on my view, but not on Professor Ring’s, is equivalent to the proposition that all ideas that are as if of things have objective reality. In other words, it is second element of the standard interpretation that is mistaken.

But what justifies giving up the second proposition instead of concluding that Descartes contradicts himself? The answer is that Descartes thinks most of our ideas that are as if of something do contain objective reality, and to avoid complications in explaining his notion of objective reality he sometimes overgeneralizes. That is, contrary to Professor Ring and proponents of the standard interpretation, I do not think that Descartes uses the notion of objective reality to explain the notion of representation. Instead, I think that he uses the notion of representation, being as if of something, to explain objective reality. And to simplify that account of objective reality, a complicated enough notion by itself, Descartes leaves out that important class of ideas that are as if of things but which do not contain objective reality. This is not to say he completely ignores that class of ideas, but instead treats them separately in his discussions of material falsity.

In the end, I think, my points of agreement with Professor Ring are more significant than our points of disagreement. But let me conclude by noting one important area of disagreement between us. In a footnote Professor Ring argues that his interpretation shows that Descartes recognizes that sensations are not intentional, they do not represent, they are not about anything, and so Descartes is not guilty of Richard Rorty’s accusation that he defines the mental as the intentional. On my reading of Descartes, sensations are as if of something, and that is just what it is to be intentional or representational.

There is more to be said here. I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him. Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it. But that is a story to be worked out on another occasion.

Paul Hoffman <img class="wp-image-14355" style="width: 150px;" src="IMG_6908-scaled.jpeg" alt="An enhanced graphic of René Descartes’s head in the upper left quadrant with a photographic headshot of Paul Hoffman wearing a blue t-shirt in the lower right quadrant and above his head in white font is the question “What is the ofness of ideas?” on a sky-blue background is used as a featured image."> MIT

<img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a> (18 seconds)

“David Ring finds two incompatible definitions of ideas in Descartes: the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition.” (Hoffman, p. 1)

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

“Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition ‘to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational’ (p. 13) is misguided.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“I think the correct conclusion is that there is a genuine tension between Descartes’s two definitions of idea.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“What Descartes seems to be implying here is that volitions are ideas not because we are aware of the representational aspect of such thoughts, but because we are aware of the volitional aspect of them.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

“Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

<a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a>

What are Hoffman's arguments as found in his comments above?

<img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a> (15 seconds)

Hoffman argues that Dr. Ring’s attempt to reconcile what he takes to be two distinct definitions of ideas in Descartes—the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition—is misguided. He contends that Dr. Ring’s distinction between an idea’s being “of something” and its representing something does not stand, and that no non-representational ideas exist in Descartes’s system. According to Hoffman, Dr. Ring’s effort to show that some ideas are “of something” but not representational fails because, for Descartes, to be “as if of something” just is to be representational. Hoffman further argues that Dr. Ring’s invocation of the form definition does not resolve the alleged inconsistency in Descartes’s account, but rather generates new tensions—particularly in the case of volitions, which Hoffmann maintains do not fit Dr. Ring’s model of non-representational “ideas.”

Hoffman asserts:

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

He argues that attempts to locate non-representational ideas in Descartes are misguided:

“Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition ‘to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational’ (p. 13) is misguided. There are no such ideas.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

He underscores that the form definition does not solve the issue but introduces conflicts with Descartes’s texts:

“I would also argue that it is [a] mistake to think that Descartes’s form definition of ideas could explain his claim in the Third Meditation that all ideas are as if of something. On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Hoffman uses the example of volitions to show that not all “ideas” understood under the form definition have the “as if of something” quality, thus contradicting Dr. Ring’s solution:

“But the volitional aspect of a thought is not itself as if of something in the Third Meditation sense. It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Hoffman concludes that what must be rejected is not the representational nature of ideas in general, but the notion that all ideas containing objective reality must represent in the same way. Instead, he claims Descartes sometimes overgeneralizes and that there is a class of ideas “as if of something” which do not contain objective reality. Such ideas are still representational in the basic sense of being “as if of something,” even if they fail to fit the stricter notion of representation involving objective reality:

“I am in wholehearted agreement with Professor Ring that Descartes thinks some ideas that are as if of something do not contain any objective reality, and this is what I take to be his fundamental challenge to the standard interpretation.” (Hoffman, p. 5)

“I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him. Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

<a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a>

Yet doesn't Hoffman contradict himself when he holds both that (H1) "No non-representational ideas exist in Descartes’s system" with (H2) Some ideas such as volitions are non-representational?

<img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a> (5 seconds)

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Hoffman is not contradicting himself here. His position is that there are no genuinely non-representational ideas in Descartes’s system—this is a conclusion he endorses as a correct interpretation of Descartes. When he later discusses volitions, he is not affirming that volitions are truly non-representational ideas; rather, he is highlighting how Dr. Ring’s attempt to use the form definition creates tension. Hoffman argues that Ring’s approach would imply that volitions are to be considered “ideas” in a sense that does not align with the representational conception of “ideas” as “as if of something.” Thus, the apparent suggestion that volitions might be non-representational “ideas” arises from trying to make the form definition do explanatory work that it cannot do without contradiction.

“On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Here, Hoffman is describing the consequences of accepting Dr. Ring’s position, not endorsing the existence of non-representational ideas himself. He is showing that if we treat all immediate perceptions of thoughts as “ideas,” then we must count volitions as ideas. But volitions do not meet the criterion of being “as if of something,” which is necessary for representationality. This leads to a contradiction if we follow Dr. Ring’s approach.

In other words, Hoffman is not claiming both (H1) and (H2). He maintains (H1)—there are no non-representational ideas according to the best interpretation of Descartes. The discussion of volitions is meant to illustrate that Dr. Ring’s attempt to salvage non-representational ideas by appealing to the form definition leads to inconsistency. Hoffman uses the volition example to refute Dr. Ring’s solution, not to assert that Descartes actually has a category of non-representational ideas.

<a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a>

What differences does it make in Descartes's theory of ideas relative to Hoffman and Ring's differing ways of characterizing Cartesian ideas as when Hoffman writes: "It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something."

<img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a> (4 seconds)

Hoffman’s shift in terminology from “of something” to “as if of something” introduces a crucial nuance that affects the interpretation of Cartesian ideas and whether non-representational ideas can exist in Descartes’s system. According to Hoffman:

“It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Ring’s usage of “of something” suggests that all ideas have a subject matter that grounds their intentionality, so that even non-representational ideas would still be “about” something in a direct way. By contrast, Hoffman’s preferred formulation “as if of something” emphasizes the representational aspect of ideas more explicitly. Here, ideas are presented as inherently imagistic or representational “as if” they depict something, rather than merely standing in some undefined relation to a content. For Hoffman, to say that all ideas are “as if of something” is to underscore that there is no gap between an idea’s being of something and its being representational.

Hoffman’s modification weakens the possibility of introducing genuinely non-representational ideas into Descartes’s ontology. Under Ring’s characterization, it might seem plausible that certain forms of thought (like volitions or other immediate perceptions) could be “of something” in a non-representational manner. But when reframed as “as if of something,” any purportedly non-representational idea would still appear to have at least a minimal representational structure, thereby foreclosing the option to distinguish a category of ideas that do not represent at all. Thus, where Ring’s language might allow the notion of non-representational ideas, Hoffman’s language blocks this possibility by linking the “as if” locution directly to Descartes’s own textual evidence, and thereby maintaining a consistent representationalist reading of Cartesian ideas.

<a href="https://drdavidcring.net/descartes-ideas/about/"><img class="wp-image-18899" style="width: 100px;" src="IMG_3381.jpeg" alt="An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification."></a>

Give an example of the two different approaches of Ring versus Hoffman on how they talk about Descartes’s cold sensation. How do the two philosophers, Ring and Hoffman talk about a cold sensation and what it is of and what and how does it represent, or not?

<img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a> (9 seconds)

Hoffman draws attention to how Ring treats sensations such as the sensation of cold as “of something” in a way that is supposed to differ from standard representation. Ring’s approach tries to establish a category of ideas that are “of something” without being strictly representational. Hoffman, by contrast, rejects this move. He insists that for Descartes, to be “as if of something” just is to be representational, and thus the cold sensation must be representational in some sense. Ring’s use of “of something” suggests a weaker form of intentionality that might allow certain ideas—like the cold sensation—to count as ideas without representing in the strict, imagistic sense. Hoffman, however, maintains that “as if of something” entails the idea is representational, leaving no room for an idea like the cold sensation to be “of something” without being representational.

Hoffman writes:

“It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Here Hoffman contrasts the volitional aspect of a thought with the sensation of cold. The sensation of cold, on Hoffman’s reading of Descartes, is “as if of something” in a representational sense. According to him, if we follow the standard interpretation that to be “as if of something” is to represent something, then the cold sensation does represent something, even if not by containing objective reality in the strict sense. Hoffman’s point is that Ring’s attempt to distinguish “of something” from representation fails in the case of cold sensations, since Hoffman reads Descartes as not recognizing such a non-representational category.

By contrast, Ring speaks in terms of ideas being “of something” in a way that does not necessarily commit them to robust representation. Under Ring’s interpretation, the cold sensation could be acknowledged as “of something” (some content or subject matter), while not strictly representing it in the full sense that involves objective reality or imagistic representation. This opens a conceptual space for non-representational ideas in Ring’s reading of Descartes’s text, which Hoffman disputes.

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Give an example of what Ring claims a cold sensation is of and what it does not represent. What would Hoffman give as an example specifically about what a cold sensation is of, or is as if of?

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In Ring’s interpretation, a cold sensation is "of" something in the sense that it has a subject matter—whatever the sensation of cold is directed toward or based on. For example, Ring may argue that a cold sensation is "of" the external environment or the experience of coldness, yet it does not represent the cold in the full, imagistic sense of representing a particular object or reality. Ring might suggest that the sensation is "of" the cold but does not represent it as an image or mental picture, thus opening the possibility of non-representational ideas. In this line, the cold sensation would have a subject matter (the coldness), but it would not fully “represent” that subject matter the way an image or a more elaborate idea would. Hoffman, however, would frame the issue differently. He would contend that, even in the case of a cold sensation, Descartes sees ideas as being “as if of something”—which means that any sensation, by definition, represents something in a minimal sense. For Hoffman: > "It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something." (Hoffman, p. 3) For Hoffman, the sensation of cold is always “as if of something”—this means that the sensation creates a mental representation (if only in a minimal way), where “as if” indicates that the sensation is experienced as representing the external world’s cold object or state. The cold sensation would be "as if of" the external cold stimulus, because Descartes treats all ideas as being representational in this way. So, for Hoffman, the cold sensation represents coldness or an external object of cold, even if it does not represent in the broader or more intricate sense of an image that contains objective reality. The key contrast here is that Ring’s language allows for the possibility of sensations that are "of something" without representing something in Descartes’s strict sense, while Hoffman insists that for Descartes, the phrase "as if of" ties directly to representation—implying the cold sensation represents the external sensation or external object of cold. for 10 seconds

According to Ring, the cold sensation can be characterized as “of something” without thereby being representational in the strict sense. As Hoffman notes:

“Although Professor Ring denies that Descartes thinks all ideas represent something, he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes ‘firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something’ (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13).” (Hoffman, p. 1)

For Ring, the cold sensation counts as an idea because it is “of something” (it has a subject matter), but this does not entail that it must represent something by containing objective reality. In other words, Ring allows for the possibility that a cold sensation is “of something” while not being fully representational or imagistic.

Hoffman, on the other hand, insists that to be “as if of something” is already to be representational. When it comes to a cold sensation, Hoffman argues:

“On my reading of Descartes, sensations are as if of something, and that is just what it is to be intentional or representational.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

For Hoffman, if a sensation such as the sensation of cold is “as if of something,” it is thereby representational. He rejects the distinction Ring tries to draw between an idea’s being “of something” and its being representational. Thus, where Ring sees a cold sensation as possibly non-representational though still “of something,” Hoffman sees it as necessarily representational because it is “as if of something.”

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Be even more specific. When you wrote “For Ring, the cold sensation counts as an idea because it is “of something” (it has a subject matter)” you need to provide the answer as to what is the subject matter in Descartes’s cold sensation.

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For Ring, the subject matter of Descartes’s cold sensation would be the *experience of cold*, the raw content of the sensory perception. In other words, the cold sensation is "of" something in the sense that it refers to an event or state—namely, the sensation of coldness itself. According to Ring, the cold sensation can be an "idea" because it has a specific subject matter (cold) but does not necessarily represent that subject matter through a full imaginative or objective structure. The sensation is an immediate representation of the state of coldness, but Ring allows for this sensation to not represent in the strict sense that implies containing *objective reality* (such as a visual image representing a body) or having an external causal basis. In contrast, for Hoffman, a cold sensation is always "as if of something," and that means it is intrinsically representational. Hoffman views the cold sensation as representing its subject matter—*coldness*—because of the representational “as if” structure. To Hoffman, it is not just "about coldness" in a vague sense, but actively presents and represents the experience of coldness through the sensory perception itself. He denies that such a sensation could be non-representational; for him, any idea that is "as if of something" must necessarily be a form of representation. Therefore, for Hoffman, the subject matter of the cold sensation is the *perception of cold*, and this perception represents coldness, whether or not it fully captures the objective reality outside the mind. for 19 seconds

According to Ring, the cold sensation is “of something,” but that “something” is not represented as an object with objective reality. Ring maintains:

“he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes ‘firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something’ (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13).” (Hoffman, p. 1)

For Ring, the sensation of cold has a subject matter—namely, the quality of cold itself. It is “of” the cold experienced, without necessarily representing it as an external object that possesses the quality of cold. Thus, from Ring’s perspective, a cold sensation is “of” cold, but this does not entail that the idea includes an image or representation of an external cold object containing objective reality.

Hoffman, in contrast, insists that a cold sensation is always “as if of something,” meaning that it must be representational in some sense:

“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

According to Hoffman’s preferred reading, a cold sensation is “as if of something,” and that is precisely what grants it a representational character. In other words, for Hoffman, a cold sensation is not merely “of” the quality of cold; it is experienced “as if” it were the image or representation of something cold. This leaves no room for a category of genuinely non-representational sensations of cold, since even a sensation of cold is treated by Hoffman as representational in virtue of being “as if of something.”

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Let’s explore some implications of Hoffman's commitment to equating “being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” If we start with Ring claiming that, as you wrote, “For Ring, the sensation of cold has a subject matter—namely, the quality of cold itself. It is “of” the cold experienced,“ is this something that Hoffman would agree is what a cold sensation exhibits to a perceiver?

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No, Hoffman would not fully agree with Ring’s interpretation of the cold sensation in this case. While Ring claims that the cold sensation is “of” the quality of cold itself, Hoffman would argue that, for Descartes, such a sensation must include a representational aspect, and therefore, it would not just be “of” cold in an abstract or non-representational sense. In Hoffman’s view, if a cold sensation is “as if of something,” this expression means that the sensation inherently involves representation as an image or mental depiction of cold—this is the hallmark of being “as if of something,” which Hoffman equates with being “as if an image of something.” As Hoffman notes: > “I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2) Thus, Hoffman’s perspective implies that a cold sensation *must* be represented as an image or a mental depiction of something cold, rather than merely being “of” the quality of cold itself without a representational component. In Hoffman's interpretation, a cold sensation cannot simply be “of” cold in an abstract sense (as Ring suggests); instead, it must always involve a representational image of cold as part of the sensation. In summary, Hoffman would argue that a cold sensation is more than just an awareness of cold as a quality. For him, it must involve a mental image or mental representation of cold, making it inherently representational, whereas Ring's interpretation allows the quality of cold itself to serve as a subject matter without requiring any mental imagery. Therefore, Hoffman rejects the possibility of a non-representational sensation of cold, unlike Ring. for 8 seconds

Hoffman does not deny that a cold sensation appears to the perceiver as if it were of coldness itself. He agrees that when we have a sensation of cold, we perceive something that presents itself as if it were the quality of cold. Hoffman’s disagreement with Ring is not over whether the sensation gives the perceiver something that seems like a quality of coldness, but over whether this “of something” status can be non-representational. Hoffman insists that:

“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Ring claims that the cold sensation has a subject matter—the quality of cold—that the perceiver is aware of. Hoffman does not dispute that the perceiver is aware of something that can be described as coldness. Rather, he argues that any sensation “as if of something” is thereby representational. For Hoffman, to be “as if of something” (like the quality of cold) is to be “as if an image of something,” and hence representational.

Hoffman’s point is that what Ring takes to be a mere subject matter—coldness itself—Hoffman takes to be, from Descartes’s perspective, inherently representational content. Thus, a cold sensation, on Hoffman’s reading, does not just give the perceiver a quality of cold as a neutral subject matter; it gives the perceiver an image or representation “as if” of that quality, making the sensation intentional and representational rather than merely being “of” something in a non-representational way.

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But the two disagree over what you said they did not when you wrote: “a sensation of cold, we perceive something that presents itself as if it were the quality of cold. Hoffman’s disagreement with Ring is not over whether the sensation gives the perceiver something that seems like a quality of coldness” because Ring holds that contrary to any cold sensation presenting itself as if it were the quality of cold, it presents itself as a phenomenologically cold experience. When Hoffman claims that s cold experience is ‘as if it were a cold experience,’ he is mistaken. Because the cold sensation presents an actual cold experience, it is not merely as if of a cold experience, which is removed from an actual cold experience.

<img class="wp-image-10749" style="width: 80px;" src="IMG_2718.png" alt="The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it."> <a href="https://openai.com/index/introducing-openai-o1-preview/">ChatGPT o1</a> (4 seconds)

According to Ring, the cold sensation is not a mere representational “as if” experience, but rather an actual phenomenological experience of cold. He contends that when one feels cold, the idea is not functioning as if it were of cold; it is genuinely presenting coldness to the perceiver. By contrast, Hoffman insists that if the idea is “as if of something,” it necessarily involves a representational element, akin to containing an image of something cold rather than delivering a direct, non-representational experience.

This is precisely where the two diverge. Ring suggests that a cold sensation provides the perceiver with the actual quality of cold in experience, not as an image or a representational proxy. For Ring, the sensation’s content is directly of that cold quality, fully realized in the perceiver’s conscious awareness. Hoffman, however, sees all “as if of something” experiences as representational in nature, meaning that even the sensation of cold is interpreted as presenting something only in a way that stands in for or images cold, rather than confronting the perceiver directly with the quality of cold itself.

The disagreement thus lies in the nature of what the cold sensation delivers to the perceiver. Ring’s view rejects the idea that it’s “as if” of something else at one remove, while Hoffman’s view treats the sensation as a representational state that brings with it the notion of “as if” rather than the straightforward presence of cold. In other words, Ring takes cold sensations to put the perceiver directly in contact with the quality of cold, whereas Hoffman treats them as inherently representational states that are only “as if” of something—implying a distance between the immediate experience and what it stands for.

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Consider how one can support Ring’s interpretion as to what Cartesian commentators should say about states of pain. Ring would claim a painful state is of pain and about pain. What would Hoffmsn claim regarding a pain state?

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Ring would suggest that a painful state directly presents or delivers pain to the perceiver as its subject matter, so that the experience is straightforwardly “of pain and about pain.” In other words, Ring would maintain that the painful state is not merely “as if” of something, but genuinely makes the perceiver aware of pain itself. By contrast, Hoffman would argue that if a painful state is “as if of something,” then it falls under the category of representational states. Although Hoffman does not discuss pain specifically in the provided commentary, his treatment of sensations such as cold makes clear how he would handle pain as well. He says:

“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

On Hoffman’s account, every state that is “as if of something” is representational. By analogy, if we consider a painful state, where Ring would say the state is simply “of pain” and presents pain itself, Hoffman would insist that the painful state is “as if of pain” in a representational sense. The pain is given not as a direct, non-representational quality, but as an “image” or representational content indicating pain. For Hoffman, this implies that the painful state does not just deliver pain as a bare subject matter; rather, it constitutes a representational “as if” experience of pain. Thus, while Ring would claim the state is directly of and about pain, Hoffman would claim that the painful state is always representational, always “as if” it were an image of pain.

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If Hoffman’s account were true, pain perceiver's with such sensations would not be suffering from experiencing a painful sensation, correct?

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Not necessarily. A person experiencing pain is still fully immersed in the suffering associated with that sensation, even on Hoffman's account. Hoffman equates states that are “as if of something” with representational states, but this does not negate the direct phenomenological experience of pain. For Hoffman, the painful sensation is still something that the perceiver experiences deeply and acutely; it’s merely that he frames the sensation as representational in nature, as an image or kind of intentional “as if” of pain, rather than an unmediated, non-representational experience. What Hoffman is asserting is that when the pain is analyzed philosophically, in line with Descartes’s framework, it should be understood as a representational experience — not that the pain itself is diminished in any way. The perceiver still suffers from the painful sensation, but what Hoffman is modifying is the conceptual analysis of what kind of idea the sensation is. Rather than seeing it as simply a direct and non-representational state of “being of pain,” he emphasizes that it's an intentional or representational state—an image or "as if" representation of pain in the mind. This does not deny the lived, suffering experience of pain; it is a philosophical distinction about the nature of the idea of pain. Therefore, even on Hoffman's account, individuals experiencing pain are still suffering, but they are experiencing it within a representational framework that characterizes the sensation as "as if of something" rather than simply as directly "of something." for 5 seconds

Hoffman’s commitment to treating all sensations as representational—“as if of something”—does not entail that those experiencing painful sensations are not suffering. Recognizing a sensation as representational does not reduce it to a mere illusion or remove its phenomenological force. On Hoffman’s view, to say that a state is “as if of something” is to highlight the inherently representational character of sensory experience, not to deny its qualitative impact. Even if the experience of pain is representational, it would still be felt as pain, and the individual undergoing the sensation would still suffer accordingly.

Hoffman’s representationalist interpretation does not change the fact that to perceive pain is to undergo a subjectively distressing state. The key disagreement between Ring and Hoffman concerns whether the sensation is directly of pain as a subject matter (Ring’s view) or “as if of something” in a representational sense (Hoffman’s view). In either case, from the sufferer’s perspective, the sensation is painful and distressing. The “as if” qualification marks the representational status, but does not detract from the immediate, forceful reality of the experience to the perceiver.

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I disagreed with your assessment when you said: “Hoffman equates states that are “as if of something” with representational states, but this does not negate the direct phenomenological experience of pain“ since any state that represents something ‘as if of something’ has the logical opportunity to claim the ‘as if of pain’ state is not an actual pain state since it is only ‘as if of’ a pain without really being a pain state or painful experience.

ChatGPT

You're correct in pointing out a potential issue in my earlier assessment. To clarify: Hoffman’s interpretation of “as if of something” does indeed introduce a category where a state may be considered representational without truly being what it represents. If we apply this to a painful sensation, on Hoffman’s account, the sensation of pain is not “pain itself” but merely a representational experience “as if of pain.” The troubling implication here, as you highlight, is that the painful experience could then be seen as less direct or less genuine, since it is only representational—it is “as if” there is pain, without being an instance of actual pain per se. In other words, if a state is merely “as if of pain,” then one might argue, following a critique similar to yours, that the state does not actually qualify as pain in the strict sense of the term because it is not the direct, felt experience of pain but only a representational version of it. This interpretation could suggest that sufferers are not truly experiencing pain in its raw, non-representational form but only experiencing something that represents pain (which might reduce or alter its felt intensity). So, in response to your point, yes, under Hoffman’s approach, a painful sensation might be seen less as a true instance of pain and more as a representation or image of pain. This distinction opens up the issue that it’s not an actual, straightforward painful state, but rather something that represents pain—a perception “as if” of pain—rather than the direct experience. for 12 seconds

Hoffman’s account of representational states does not logically preclude the reality or painfulness of a pain experience. It is incorrect to assume that if a sensation is “as if of something,” it must therefore fail to be a genuine experience. While you claim that being “as if of pain” invites the possibility that the experience is not truly painful, this line of reasoning misinterprets the role that representation plays in Hoffman’s reading of Descartes. Being representational or “as if of something” does not amount to masquerading as pain in a merely hypothetical or fictional sense. Instead, it is a way of conceptualizing the nature of sensory content: representational states need not be purely imagistic or wholly detached from what they represent.

Hoffman’s stance aims to show that having an “as if of” structure to sensations captures their intentional nature—i.e., that sensations are directed toward something and thus can properly be said to be of, or as if of, something. This intentional structure is not a distancing device that transforms real pain into some non-painful image. Rather, the representationalist framework is neutral with respect to the subjective intensity and aversive quality of the experience. There is nothing in representational content that strips away the qualitative, phenomenological aspect of suffering. To say that a pain sensation is “as if of something” is to say that it occupies a place in the perceiver’s mind as a state purporting to disclose something—namely, pain—without thereby claiming that it is an unreal, make-believe, or diminished version of that pain.

Hoffman’s approach does not deny the immediate felt quality that makes pain what it is, nor does it grant a logical foothold for dismissing pain as unreal. A representational view can fully accommodate the brute fact that the subject suffers. The philosophical question at issue is not whether representational structures allow someone to escape the experience of pain, but how best to understand the intrinsic directedness and content of that pain within Descartes’s philosophical framework. Representationality and genuine suffering are not logically at odds: a state can be both representational and genuinely, undeniably painful.

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Hoffman claims “There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something.” (HH1) What are those ‘very good reasons’? (HH2) Are there good reasons to think Descartes does distinguish between them?

ChatGPT

**Thought about Hoffman's interpretation of Descartes** for 15 seconds

Answer:
(HH1) Hoffman’s “very good reason” for doubting that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something is based on the textual evidence he examines. He argues that the key passages Professor Ring cites to show that ideas represent something and that all ideas are of something occur in close proximity in the Third Meditation. According to Hoffman:

“There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. The passage that Professor Ring cites as the key piece of textual evidence in favor of the standard interpretation view that all ideas represent something lies in close proximity in the Third Meditation to the passage he cites as the key piece of evidence that all ideas are of something. These are the two passages: first (this is the passage supporting the standard interpretation that all ideas represent something), ‘Some of my thoughts are as if images of things, and it is only in these cases that the term “idea” is strictly appropriate’ (AT VII 37; CSM II 25); and second (this is the passage alleged to support the view that all ideas are of something), ‘there can be no ideas which are not as if of things’ (AT VII 44; CSM II 30). I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something. I think the French translation of the second passage bears this out.” (Hoffman, pp. 1–2)

Hoffman thus treats the textual closeness of these passages and the implications of the French translation as providing strong reasons to conclude that Descartes did not mean to draw a distinction between ideas representing something and ideas being of something.

(HH2) As for whether there are good reasons to think Descartes does distinguish between them, Hoffman explicitly denies that the evidence supports any such distinction:

“This distinction, between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something, is not one that defenders of the standard interpretation are likely to recognize. For them, for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Hoffman finds no convincing textual basis for claiming that Descartes separated the notion of an idea being of something from an idea representing something. Instead, Hoffman contends that the evidence supports the interpretation that to say an idea is “of something” is simply another way of saying that it represents something.

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Independent of Hoffman’s views, can you think of why Descartes does or could distinguish between them?

ChatGPT

Thought for 7 seconds

Even without appealing to Hoffman’s interpretation, one might see reasons why Descartes could, at least conceptually, distinguish between an idea’s being “of something” and its representing something. Within a scholastic and early modern philosophical framework, the notion of “of something” (or “being of a thing”) can be read as a baseline condition for ideas: namely, that every idea possesses some intentional directedness or aboutness. Every idea must have a content—something it is “of”—because a thought without any object at all would be inconceivable as a thought.

By contrast, to say that an idea “represents something” can be taken as imposing a stronger condition. Representation involves some manner of standing for, depicting, mirroring, or conveying the nature of what the idea is about. It implies not only that the idea is directed at something, but also that the idea presents that something in a particular way, often involving a content-structure that corresponds (at least to some degree) to the object of thought. Thus, while being “of something” could mark the mere fact that ideas are intentionally directed (they have an object, even if vaguely), “representing something” could mark a more specific relationship: that the idea carries an internal character or form that makes it a quasi-stand-in for the object, allowing for comparisons of accuracy, fidelity, or completeness.

From a Cartesian perspective, there are at least three potential reasons for acknowledging such a distinction:

  1. Intentionality vs. Representational Content:
    An idea that is “of something” simply indicates that the mind is directed toward an object or content. This is a minimal intentional relation. However, “representing something” suggests a specific manner or mode of presentation—one that involves the idea possessing a structured content that can be more or less accurate, vivid, or detailed. Descartes, concerned as he is with questions of clarity, distinctness, and truth, might need to differentiate the mere fact that the mind targets an object from the richer claim that the mind’s idea faithfully or meaningfully depicts that object.
  2. Accommodating Different Types of Thoughts:
    Descartes recognizes various kinds of mental states: pure intellective ideas, imaginative ideas, volitions, and sensory perceptions. Not all of these seem to represent their objects in the same way. Some, like certain sensations or passions, might be said simply to be “of” or directed at something (like a feeling of cold or a desire for warmth), without necessarily presenting a structured, representational “image” that can be measured against reality. Distinguishing “of something” from “representing something” could allow Descartes to handle these borderline cases differently. An idea could be “of” a sensation or passion it presents, yet not “represent” in the sense of laying out an intelligible likeness or conceptual map of that object.
  3. Error, Material Falsity, and Objective Reality:
    Descartes develops a notion of objective reality in ideas, where representation is crucial. Ideas have objective reality to the extent that they carry the representational “stamp” of their objects. But what about confused or materially false ideas, such as certain sensory illusions? Saying these ideas are “of something” at least recognizes they point to an object. Yet if they fail to represent that object accurately—if their representational content is distorted—then one might say they are “of” something without properly “representing” it. This conceptual gap might help explain how errors creep in. The difference could be put to work in analyzing how the mind can be pointed toward something yet fail to get it right representationally.

In sum, even apart from Hoffman's arguments, there are conceptual motivations in Descartes’s broader philosophical enterprise that could justify a distinction between an idea’s mere “of-ness” (its intentional directedness) and its “representational” character (the structured, more or less faithful depiction of its object). This distinction could help navigate the complexity of Descartes’s taxonomy of mental states, explain the nature of error, and address the varying degrees of clarity and distinctness that different types of ideas possess.

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Let me provide a further reason for why Descartes needs to distinguish between an idea being ‘of something’ and an idea being ‘as if an image of a thing by containing objective reality.’ Notice that when Hoffman claims their equivalence that he is forced to change being ‘of something’ to being ‘as if of’ something to maintain parallel structure. Yet this is a mistake. When a cold sensation is of something, it is of phenomenological coolness. It is not true that a cold sensation is ‘as if of coolness’ since the ‘as if’ claim permits any state with that characteristic of only being “as if of X’ to not be actually of an X. Consider the following example. At a fraternity initiation, pledges are shown a red hot poker heating in a fire with the Greek letters of the fraternity glowing red hot. The pledges are then blindfolded and told to expose their forearm and that this branding iron will be used to mark them as fraternity members. But when branding each pledge, an ice cube is placed upon their forearm rather than a red hot poker. Because the pledges believe they are about to be burned, they often scream that it is too hot upon being touched by the ice cube. In this instance, the cold sensation caused by the ice cube is perceived by a pledge as being “as if it is of hotness.” We need to say ‘as if of hotness’ since it is actually of coldness. Therefore, being ‘as if of coldness or of hotness’ is not the same thing as actually being of one of them, thereby requiring we distinguish between being ‘of X,’ as opposed to merely being ‘as if of X.’ 

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Thought for 7 seconds

The example involving the ice cube and the red-hot poker scenario exposes a critical shortcoming in Hoffman’s move to collapse “of something” into “as if of something.” When a perceiver is actually experiencing a cold sensation—caused by the ice cube—and yet interprets it as hot because of their belief and expectation, the phenomenological content is genuinely of coldness, not merely “as if of coldness.” The cold sensation is really given to them as an experience of coldness, even if the perceiver misidentifies it due to contextual cues. By contrast, if we only speak in terms of “as if of something,” we invite the inference that the perceiver’s actual experience might not be of coldness at all—merely “as if” coldness—obscuring the difference between what the experience genuinely presents (coldness) and the perceiver’s erroneous belief that it is hot.

Without this distinction, we lose the ability to say that certain states really are of their characteristic phenomenological object, even when misinterpreted. The scenario shows that there must be a stable notion of an idea being of something—of genuine coldness—in order for the perceiver’s mistaken conviction that it is hot to even count as a misidentification. If we only had the “as if of something” formulation, then the state would be trapped in a limbo of representational ambiguity, with no principled way to assert that the sensation is actually presenting coldness to the perceiver. This undercuts Hoffman’s assumption of equivalence. The possibility of straightforward phenomenological presentation—being truly of coldness—must be secured if we are to explain how a perceiver can be wrong about their experience rather than their experience itself being fatally indeterminate.

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Consequently, does not the foregoing prove that Hoffman’s equivalence between an idea being ‘of something’ and its being ‘as if an image’ cannot be correct?

1/2

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Thought for 4 seconds

Yes, the example of the ice cube and the red-hot poker strongly undermines Hoffman’s proposed equivalence. On Hoffman’s view, collapsing “of something” into “as if an image of something” risks erasing a crucial distinction. If a cold sensation is genuinely of coldness—as in the case where the subject’s arm is touched by an ice cube—then no matter the subject’s mistaken belief about the source (believing it to be hot rather than cold), the actual phenomenological content remains an experience of coldness.

If we follow Hoffman and describe the state as merely “as if of something,” we grant logical space for claiming that the sensation need not be of actual coldness, but only present itself “as if” it were coldness. This move makes it possible to confuse the phenomenological fact of what the sensation is—of genuine coldness—with how it might be misinterpreted. The “as if” formulation suggests that the state never truly settles on what it is of, thus blurring the line between authentic phenomenological content and mistaken belief. The scenario demonstrates that a subject can be mistaken about the nature of a sensation (believing it is hot) precisely because the sensation itself is determinately of something else (coldness). This mismatch can only be explained if we preserve the distinction between “of something” and “as if of something.”

Thus, the difference between being “of X” and merely being “as if of X” is indispensable, and the example reveals that Hoffman's attempt to establish their equivalence cannot be sustained.

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So, when Hoffman writes, “For [supporters of the standard interpretation], for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something,” can this position still be defended?

ChatGPT

The position that "for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something," as expressed by Hoffman, faces serious challenges when considered in light of the example you've provided. The distinction between "of something" and "as if of something" is important because the scenario with the ice cube clearly points out that it is possible for an idea to be *of something*—in this case, of coldness—even if the perceiver misinterprets it as hot. The phenomenological content of the sensation is determined by its being *of* coldness, regardless of the cognitive error about the source. Hoffman’s equivalence between "of something" and "representing" collapses these two dimensions, but the above example shows that they shouldn't be conflated. Being “of something” accounts for the actual object or quality to which the mental state is directed, while representing something involves the cognitive or intentional act of presenting the object in a way that involves more than just its raw phenomenological content—such as a mental image or concept of that object. In this case, the cold sensation is *of coldness*, a direct, unmediated experience, even if its interpretation is wrong. It is not only an "as if" image of hotness. Therefore, the position Hoffman suggests, which equates "being of something" with "representing something," is not sustainable when we consider the need to distinguish between accurate phenomenological experience and how we may misinterpret it. The example strongly argues for maintaining a conceptual distinction between *of something* (the direct quality or experienced property) and *representing something* (the cognitive or mediated representation), meaning Hoffman's position appears to be too simplistic in this context. for 12 seconds

It can still be defended, but doing so requires a careful clarification of what “represent” means. The challenge highlighted by the branding-iron/ice-cube scenario is that it exposes a conceptual gap between simply having a state that is “of” a certain qualitative content (such as coldness) and describing that state as “as if” of that qualitative content. The “as if” locution introduces the possibility that what appears to be presented may not be genuinely what the idea is about, creating space for misinterpretation or illusion. This, in turn, suggests that describing all “of something” states as “representational” might gloss over important phenomenological distinctions.

However, supporters of the standard interpretation—that to be “of something” just is to represent it—might respond in several ways:

  1. Expanding the notion of representation:
    They could argue that “representing” need not mean adopting a detached, imagistic, or “as if” attitude. Instead, “representing” might be defined broadly enough to include all forms of directedness or intentionality. On this view, any idea that is of something—whether it involves a clear image, a direct qualitative feel, or even an indistinct content—counts as representational. Thus, a state of pain is said to represent pain simply in virtue of its being intentionally directed at and revealing the quality of pain. This move treats representation not as a separate layer of “as if” imagery, but as the fundamental characteristic of having any object-directed mental content at all.
  2. Treating errors and illusions as still representational:
    Even when we consider the red-hot poker/ice cube trick, the confusion arises precisely because the mind is representing something—albeit inaccurately. The pledge’s cry that it “burns” can be understood as a misinterpretation of what is actually presented. But defenders of the standard view can say that the pledge’s sensation still represents a quality (albeit a quality misidentified as heat rather than cold). Representation, in their view, is simply about having an intentional content directed at something—even if the representational content does not match the reality of the external cause.
  3. A unified theory of mental states:
    Some supporters of the standard interpretation might argue that there is philosophical merit in having a unified concept that all mental states are representational. If every idea is “of” something and that “of”-ness is what they call “representation,” then the distinction the opponent wants to draw between being “of something” and “representing something” may look artificial. The defender might say that the phenomenological directness of pain is not non-representational; it is simply a type of representational content delivered with vivid immediacy and certain phenomenal qualities.

In short, the scenario you raise puts pressure on the standard interpretation by showing how “of something” can be read as a genuine presentation of that something, while “as if” introduces interpretive flexibility and possible error. Yet, a proponent of the standard interpretation can still maintain their position by broadening what they count as representation and insisting that all “of something” states—even straightforward pains and sensations—are representational insofar as they intentionally present their content to the mind. This strategy preserves the standard interpretation’s core claim that to be of something is to represent it, though it demands a more inclusive, less imagistic notion of representation.

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I am interested in exploring the proposal of a refined understanding of representation, as you suggested when you wrote, “Instead, “representing” might be defined broadly enough to include all forms of directedness or intentionality. On this view, any idea that is of something—whether it involves a clear image, a direct qualitative feel, or even an indistinct content—counts as representational. Thus, a state of pain is said to represent pain simply in virtue of its being intentionally directed at and revealing the quality of pain. This move treats representation not as a separate layer of “as if” imagery, but as the fundamental characteristic of having any object-directed mental content at all.” I think when you said that “a state of pain represents pain because it is intentionally directed at and reveals the quality of pain” that this cannot count as representational and here is why. Does an automobile represent an automobile? No, it does not since it is an automobile. Therefore, an actual pain is just a pain and does not represent a pain. Anything that represents R must not be an R. Therefore, pains do not represent themselves.

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Thought for 6 seconds

Your argument that pains do not represent themselves trades on a particular understanding of what it means for a state to represent something. Specifically, you are treating “pain” as if it is a self-identical phenomenon that can either be represented or simply be present, and you are denying that something identical with pain could be a representation of pain. The automobile analogy highlights this view nicely: since an automobile is just an automobile, not a representation of one, so too, a pain sensation, by being exactly pain, cannot represent pain.

However, this line of reasoning presupposes a notion of representation that the defenders of a more expansive representational theory of mind do not necessarily share. Let’s break down a few points:

  1. Representation Need Not Involve a Separate Object:
    In common sense terms, we think of representation as something distinct from what it represents—paintings represent landscapes, words represent objects, and so forth. But when philosophers of mind talk about representation, they often mean “intentional content”: a directedness or aboutness that a mental state has toward something. Under one approach, the mere fact that a mental state has a directedness or intentional “aboutness” can suffice for it to be considered representational. This is a broader notion of representation, not necessarily the same as the “standing in for another distinct object” model.
  2. Phenomenal Character and Representational Content:
    Consider that mental states, including pains, are often analyzed in terms of phenomenal character and intentionality. A representationalist about qualia might argue that what makes a state a “pain state” is that it carries certain representational content about bodily damage or distress. On this view, the mental state we label “pain” is not just identical to “pain itself” in a simplistic sense, but is rather the mind’s way of presenting information—of representing a bodily condition as harmful, alarming, or in need of attention. The mental state is distinct from the bodily condition that it informs you about, just as a gauge on your car’s dashboard “represents” engine overheating. The gauge is not identical to overheating; it represents overheating. Similarly, the mental state is not identical to some abstract thing called “pain” outside the experience. It is a structured mental content that attributes a harmful condition to a part of the body.
  3. Disentangling the Experience from Its Content:
    Your argument supposes that if the mental state is “pain,” it must simply be pain and nothing more. But from a representationalist perspective, “pain” names a certain phenomenally-loaded content: it is how your mind encodes certain undesirable conditions (physical harm, tissue damage, excessive pressure, etc.). If one denies that pain is just brute phenomenology and instead holds that pain is the mind’s representational tracking of bodily harm, then the state is not merely “pain” simpliciter. It is a mental representation of a condition we call “painful.” In that sense, the mental state encodes or points to something (bodily damage), and its phenomenal character (the felt quality of pain) is the form that this representational content takes. Thus, while it feels direct and immediate, the argument goes that what you call “pain” is actually a representational device used by the mind to guide behavior—avoidance, withdrawal, care-seeking—and to mark certain bodily states as harmful.
  4. Why the Car Analogy Is Misleading:
    An automobile is a material object. It does not have intentionality; it does not “point to” or “present” something else. Mental states, however, possess intentionality—the hallmark of representation in the philosophical sense. By assimilating mental states to physical objects like cars, one removes the key dimension that gives mental states their representational character. Representation in the mind is not merely a matter of one object standing in for another; it’s about how the mind structures and presents information. A pain sensation is not just an object called “pain”—it’s the mind’s presentation of a noxious, bodily-affecting condition that urges avoidance. That “presentation” is what representationalists identify as representation.

In short, from the representationalist standpoint, your argument that pain cannot represent pain because “an automobile does not represent an automobile” overlooks the distinctive feature of mental states: intentionality. The mental state we call “pain” isn’t simply “an actual pain” identical to the thing it represents; rather, it is a complex mental event that encodes and delivers information about a bodily condition. It feels immediate and non-mediated because that is how the representation presents itself to our conscious awareness, but this does not preclude it from being representational in the philosophical sense of the term.

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Descartes would claim that the lion is represented in a mental state that is a fear of a lion, but he denies that the fear aspect represents anything. On the expanded view of representation you just explained, is Descartes mistaken about whether the fear aspect is non/representational?

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Thought for a couple of seconds

From the perspective of an expanded notion of representation—one that encompasses all forms of intentional directedness—it would follow that Descartes is underestimating the representational dimensions of affective or emotional states like fear. While Descartes recognizes that the idea of a lion is represented to the mind (that is, the lion itself is an object of thought), he insists that the fear aspect added to the idea does not represent anything over and above the lion. He treats the fear as a mere subjective modification of the thinker, lacking its own directedness at an external object.

Under the broader representational framework, however, fear would not be a mere non-representational feeling. Instead, fear could be said to represent something like danger, harm, or threat. Even if the fear does not depict the lion in a new way, it adds intentional content that interprets or frames the lion in a particular manner—namely, as dangerous. This would mean that the fear is not a neutral, directionless feeling but a state that is “about” something: it is “about” the lion’s threat-value or harmfulness. Thus, within a more inclusive representational theory, the fear aspect does not simply coexist with the representation of the lion; it also conveys a certain representational content: “Here is something harmful” or “This situation should be avoided.”

Hence, if one embraces this more expansive understanding of representation, then yes, Descartes would be mistaken or at least incomplete in claiming that fear, as an affective addition, does not represent anything. On the expanded view, fear, like all states with intentional structure, contributes representational content by shaping how the subject understands, values, or responds to the object of thought.

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Given the more expansive understanding of representation, is it possible for any mental state to be non-representational?

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**Thought about non-representational mental states** for a few seconds

On a maximally expansive understanding of representation, one that treats any form of mental directedness as a type of representational content, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify a purely non-representational mental state. To clarify why, consider the following points:

  1. Intentionality as the Mark of the Mental:
    A classical line of thought, often associated with various traditions in philosophy of mind, holds that intentionality—the aboutness or directedness of a mental state toward something—is the hallmark of all mental phenomena. If one adopts this position, then every mental state is “of” something: a thought is about an object or proposition, a perception is about something perceived, an emotion is directed toward or triggered by something (a situation, a memory, a threat), and even moods may be said to subtly shape how the world is presented to the subject. On such a view, it becomes natural to say that all mental states have content and thus represent something in at least a broad sense.
  2. Expanding Representation to Include Evaluative and Affective Content:
    If representation is not limited to pictorial imagery, conceptual descriptions, or propositional content, but also includes any evaluative stance or interpretive filter through which the mind encounters reality, then emotions and moods become representational states as well. For example, fear represents danger, love represents value and significance in another person, anger represents the presence of a perceived injustice. Even bodily pains and pleasures can be seen as representing conditions of bodily harm or benefit. On this expanded approach, not only cognitive and sensory states count as representational, but also affective states. The scope of representation grows so broad that every mental phenomenon arguably encodes some perspective on or aboutness toward conditions internal or external to the subject.
  3. Challenges to the Expansive Account:
    One might wonder if there could be purely sensory “raw feels” that do not represent anything at all—pure qualia stripped of any aboutness. Traditional qualia theorists have claimed there can be such raw feels: a feeling of ineffable redness, a raw tingle, a bare sensation unconnected to any object, cause, or interpretation. However, once you commit to an expanded notion of representation, it becomes hard to maintain that such states exist. If every discriminable quality of experience carries some sort of informational or directed content—if the redness is not just a bare feel but also indicates the presence of something red “out there” or alerts you to certain reflectance properties in the environment—then even qualia are enveloped by representational significance. Thus, the standard route to acknowledging non-representational mental states through qualia talk is blocked.What about so-called “objectless” moods or diffuse states like anxiety or depression, where one might claim that there is no clear intentional object? Even these states can be understood representationally: anxiety may represent a vague threat or uncertainty in one’s environment or future; depression might represent a global devaluation or disenchanted stance toward one’s life and prospects. While not as crisp in their content as a fear of a charging lion, such moods still frame the world in a certain way, imbuing it with a representational coloring that shifts how the subject encounters people, situations, and possibilities.
  4. The Cost of Total Representationalism:
    If we accept that representation includes all forms of directedness, evaluative stance, and experiential framing, then we’ve adopted a highly inclusive definition of representation. The payoff is theoretical simplicity and unity: all mental phenomena share a representational structure. But the cost is that the term “representation” loses some of its discriminative power. It no longer sharply distinguishes between states that depict, encode, or carry information about something else and states that are simply felt. Yet from the standpoint of a fully intentional view of the mental, this cost might be acceptable or even desirable, since it integrates all mental states into a single framework of aboutness.
  5. Is a Non-Representational Residue Even Possible?
    To imagine a non-representational mental state on this expansive view, you would need to conceive of a mental phenomenon entirely devoid of intentionality—no direction, no aboutness, no informational or evaluative content. Such a state, by definition, would be phenomenologically inert. It would fail to present anything to the subject, fail to inform the subject of any condition of the world or self, and fail to motivate any interpretation or response. In other words, it would not be recognizable as a mental state at all. It would be more akin to a mere physiological occurrence devoid of mental character. Once one takes intentionality and representational content as essential to “the mental,” it is unclear that such a purely non-representational mental state can exist.

In conclusion, given a broad representationalist framework—one that identifies all mental phenomena with some form of directedness or content—there seems to be no room left for non-representational mental states. They either collapse into representational states under this expansive definition or cease to count as genuinely mental. Thus, from within such a perspective, it is very hard, if not impossible, to isolate a mental state that remains wholly non-representational.

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On the expansive view of representation, are unconscious thoughts still representational?

ChatGPT

Thought for a couple of seconds

On the expansive view of representation, where any state that carries intentional or content-based directedness counts as representational, unconscious thoughts still qualify as representational states. This position arises from extending the framework of intentionality beyond the narrow confines of conscious, occurrent thinking:

  1. Dispositional vs. Occurrent States:
    Mental states are often divided into occurrent (present to consciousness) and dispositional (stored, latent, or not currently in one’s awareness) states. A belief you have but are not presently thinking about, a memory not currently retrieved, or a desire not currently felt can all be said to exist “in the mind” without being phenomenally conscious. On an expansive representational account, these dispositional states are still about something—they carry information, stand ready to be activated or called upon, and can guide behavior or inference. Their intentionality does not vanish simply because they are not lit up in the conscious foreground.
  2. Representing Without Phenomenal Presence:
    Consciousness is not required for representation. Even when you are not actively recalling it, your belief that “Paris is the capital of France” still encodes or stands for certain information about the world. If you are momentarily distracted, your desire for a glass of water does not cease to have water as its object—it remains a state that would direct you toward obtaining water if it became occurrent. Thus, unconscious beliefs, memories, and desires are representational in virtue of what they stand for and what they would present to the mind under the right conditions, even though they may not currently occupy your conscious awareness.
  3. Functional and Explanatory Roles:
    Representational content plays a crucial role in how we explain and predict behavior. Many unconscious states influence behavior and cognition by virtue of the information they carry. For instance, implicit biases or unconscious problem-solving heuristics have “targets” or “objects” they pertain to, shaping how we interpret new information or guide actions. The fact that these states operate behind the scenes does not negate their representational nature. Instead, their representational content explains why they have certain cognitive and behavioral effects.
  4. Broadening the Scope of the Mental:
    Once one adopts a broad representational framework, representation becomes the organizing principle of all mental phenomena, not just those available to introspection. The unconscious does not become a barren wasteland devoid of meaning or content; it is a repository of representational states that can be activated or influence conscious processes indirectly. This perspective aligns well with many cognitive science models, where mental representations stored in memory structures or neural patterns inform behavior and cognition without necessarily being consciously accessed.

In short, on the expansive representational view, unconscious thoughts remain representational states. They carry directedness toward certain objects, states of affairs, or goals, even when they are not being consciously entertained. As long as “aboutness” or intentionality is taken as the hallmark of representation, unconscious mental states fall comfortably within this category.

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Suppose, as Descartes does, that the physical universe does not exist. What would a cold sensation be about?

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If we adopt the Cartesian hypothesis that the physical universe does not exist, the question of what a cold sensation "would be about" becomes more complex and abstract. Without an external, material world to ground the sensation in physical properties, such as the temperature of an actual object, the cold sensation would no longer be about a physical stimulus (e.g., the touch of a cold object to the skin). Nonetheless, a cold sensation could still have intentionality—it might still be "about" something, just not about the external world in a traditional sense. Here's an exploration: 1. **The Cold Sensation as a Mental State**: In a universe where the physical world is denied, the cold sensation itself still exists as a mental phenomenon. It would be about the mental state itself—the felt quality of coldness. This quality could still serve a purpose within a mental framework even without a physical external source. In this scenario, the cold sensation might be understood as being about some internal representation or the body’s states of mind (e.g., a body’s sensory perception of itself as a mental event). 2. **The Internal Representation of an Idea of Object**: Descartes might argue that the sensation of cold represents an idea—an idea that is derived from the mind itself or the res cogitans (thinking substance). The sensation could be "about" an abstract mental term of coldness, even without referencing an actual external object. It could be about the mental form or idea of coldness that exists in the mind. This perspective would mark the sensation as still being a mental state that carries intentionality, albeit no longer grounded in a physical object. 3. **The Purpose and Form of the Sensation**: Even though the sensation might not be tied to a physical cause, the mental experience of coldness could still have a functional role within Descartes' system, guiding behavior (such as the avoidance of discomfort) or manifesting as an inner representation expressing a particular mental or bodily state. In a bodyless world, chilly or uncomfortable sensations may still exist in an ideal form that directs action, or they might be the conceptual and emotional impact of the mental process of feeling “coldness.” 4. **A Property of Mind in Isolation**: Another possibility is that a cold sensation could be viewed as about a mental state that operates independently of reference to external objects entirely. For instance, it could represent a body-state or an overall sense of discomfort or isolation in a world without physical objects. It may be about the “inner experience” of being affected by mental states that are similar to physical sensations. Thus, under the assumption that the physical universe does not exist, the cold sensation would no longer be about the external world and temperature phenomena. Instead, it would likely be understood as about the mental state itself or as an abstract idea about coldness within the mind. The sensation could be a representation or concept in the mind that has its own mental form but does not represent cold as an objective property of the physical world. for 8 seconds

On Descartes’s scenario that the physical universe may be illusory and not actually exist, the cold sensation would still be “as if” about something—namely, the quality of coldness—but this quality would lack a real external instantiation. In other words, the idea of coldness would be a mental content directed toward what the mind takes to be a property “out there,” even though no external world exists to ground that property. Descartes allows for ideas that represent qualities not actually present in an external reality, and these ideas are “materially false.” The cold sensation, in this case, stands as a prime example of a materially false idea: it purports to be of something external (coldness as a quality of an object or environment) while no actual object or environment supports that quality.

Thus, if we accept Descartes’s supposition, the cold sensation does not lose its directedness; it still purports to be of coldness. However, without a physical universe to anchor that quality, the coldness is never fulfilled by a corresponding external object. Instead, the cold sensation simply exists as a representational state within the mind—an intentional content that fails to refer to any real, external entity. In doing so, it highlights the gap between the structure of our sensory ideas and any supposed external world. Even stripped of an existing physical universe, the mind still “points” to qualities like coldness, though it does so in a way that lacks any true referent beyond the idea itself.

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Hoffman believes that if a mental state is ‘as if of something,’ it must be representational. But if a mental state is only ‘of something,’ must it be representational, too?

ChatGPT

Thought for 5 seconds

According to Hoffman’s reasoning, once the distinction between “representing something” and “being of something” collapses, then any mental state that is genuinely “of something” is also a representational state. Hoffman’s argument is that Descartes does not acknowledge a category of ideas that are “of something” without also representing it. Instead, “being of something” turns out to be just another way of talking about the very same representational character that ensures an idea is “as if an image of something.”

Hoffman cites Descartes’s Third Meditation passages where Descartes speaks both of ideas that “represent something” and of ideas that are “of something.” Hoffman’s view is that these are not two distinct phenomena. Rather, they express the same fact: namely, that to be an idea “of something” is already to present the mind with content that can be measured, assessed, or considered in terms of whether it matches or fails to match some object or quality. In other words, being “of something” is not a looser or weaker condition that would allow for non-representational content; it is an equally strong condition that entails representational directedness toward that “something.”

Thus, if one accepts Hoffman’s approach, it follows that any mental state genuinely “of something” must also be representational. The difference between “as if of something” and simply “of something” disappears in the sense that both clauses indicate a mental state’s intentional directedness, the very hallmark of representationality. There is no room left for a purely “of something” state that is non-representational: to be “of something” simply is to represent that something.

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Yet above, I argued, and you agreed that being ‘as if of something’ is not the same thing as being ‘of something’ since a cold sensation is ‘of cold,’ but it is not true that that sensation is ‘as if of cold.’ Therefore, when a cold sensation is ‘of cold,’ it is not representing cold but exhibiting phenomenological coolness, and this means a mental state that is ‘of cold’ can be non-representational contrary to Hoffman’s position 

ChatGPT

You're right to highlight the distinction between being "of something" and being "as if of something," and this distinction indeed allows for the possibility of non-representational mental states. Specifically, when a cold sensation is "of cold," this simply means that the sensation presents the topic (coldness) within the mind without the adorned notion of "as if"—meaning it directly aligns with phenomenological coolness. If a sensation "is of cold" but does not carry an image or representation of coldness in the way Hoffman describes, it doesn't necessarily include a representational element—it is simply the experience or qualia of coldness. Most importantly, the sensation of coldness could be understood as presenting the experience directly, not representing coldness in the way an image or concept might represent something. By this reasoning, a cold sensation could indeed be non-representational according to this interpretation. In the context of Hoffman’s position, which collapses being "of something" into being representational, it becomes apparent that the direct experience of coldness (or other similar qualities) can be understood as non-representational. Your argument demonstrates a clear challenge to Hoffman's view, showing that a sensory state like a cold sensation can be “of cold” without being representational—it merely *exhibits* the quality of coldness phenomenologically rather than representing it or imaging it conceptually. Therefore, contrary to Hoffman’s interpretation, there could exist mental states that are "of something" without representing it. This supports the idea that "of something" may not always imply a representational state, creating space for non-representational sensory experiences like a cold sensation. for 15 seconds

Your argument presupposes that there is a stark difference between a mental state’s being “of” something and its “representing” that thing. But the mere presence of phenomenological “coolness” does not suffice to show that no representation is at play. Let’s examine the assumptions more closely.

First, calling a sensation “of cold” already posits that it has intentional directedness. To say it is “of cold” is to say it has some specific content: it points to something—coldness—rather than being an undifferentiated blur of experience. The sensation is not identical to external, physical coldness. The mind does not literally become cold when experiencing coldness. What it does is present or deliver a quality that we recognize as “coldness.” This is not a brute identity; it is a presentation of coldness to the subject. That is to say, the mental state displays coldness as the content of the experience, making it intelligible to the subject as “cold” rather than as something else.

If the mental state were not representational, it would be difficult to explain in what sense it is truly “of” coldness. Saying a mental state is “of cold” but not representational leaves the relation between the state and coldness unexplained. If it were literally identical to coldness itself, then we would have to say the subject’s mind somehow contains or instantiates actual coldness, which makes no sense. What the mind does instead is produce an experience that stands in for coldness, indicating to the subject: “This is what cold is like.” That is precisely what representation does—stand in for something, present it to the mind, allow the subject to grasp it, even if imperfectly.

Furthermore, the supposed distinction between “of something” and “as if of something” does not eliminate representationality. “As if of something” was introduced to indicate a representational role—a suggestion that the mind is presenting something as if it were present. But dropping the “as if” does not somehow neutralize intentionality. The moment you say the sensation is “of cold,” you are acknowledging a directed content. The difference is that “as if” language highlights the mind’s representational stance explicitly, while “of” language might seem to talk about a direct presence. Yet there is no direct presence of cold inside the mind. The mind still mediates the quality through an experiential content—i.e., it represents it.

In short, the shift from “as if of something” to “of something” does not abolish representationality. A mental state described as “of cold” is not simply identical to coldness. Instead, it places the subject in cognitive contact with the quality of coldness by presenting or instantiating it in a mental form. This presenting or instantiating is what representation is. Even if you don’t employ the “as if” formulation, the mental state’s intentional character—its aboutness—is intact. It is this aboutness that marks the state as representational.

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You give a spirited defense that being of coldness could still be considered a representation. But what is the cold sensation representing, according to your spirited defense?

ChatGPT

Thought for a couple of seconds

On a representational reading, the cold sensation stands for or encodes the property we identify as “coldness.” This coldness need not be literally present in the mind, nor need it be a material property actually existing outside the mind (as per the Cartesian scenario where the external world might be illusory). Instead, the sensation represents what it is like for the mind to be acquainted with “coldness” as a quality. In normal circumstances, this quality is associated with a lower temperature in the environment or a particular tactile stimulus acting on the body’s sensory receptors.

In other words, when we say the sensation is “of cold,” we mean that the mental state presents the subject with the phenomenal profile corresponding to coldness, as opposed to warmth or pain or any other quality. Representation here consists in providing the subject with a content—the experience of coldness—that points beyond itself, in however minimal a way, to a type of property or condition. This property may or may not be instantiated in a real external world, but representationally speaking, the mind is purporting to introduce the subject to the nature of coldness. Thus, what the cold sensation represents is the very experience-type or property we classify as “cold,” allowing the mind to navigate and differentiate sensory qualities as though they were properties of objects or states of affairs outside itself.

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I don't accept your characterization of why a cold sensation must be representational when you wrote, “The [cold] sensation represents what it is like for the mind to be acquainted with “coldness” as a quality” because a cold sensation is not representing what it is like to be acquainted with coldness but only exhibiting or presenting what coldness feels like. If I present you with an automobile, I am not representing anything. Furthermore, when you said, “Representation here consists in providing the subject with a content—the experience of coldness—that points beyond itself, in however minimal a way, to a type of property or condition,” Descartes denies that a cold sensation does what you suggest here since he claims he cannot determine whether or not his cold sensation represents a privation, or a real quality, or neither one so according to Descartes in the Third Meditation a cold sensation is not representing anything that he can determine. You then continued by arguing, “The property may or may not be instantiated in a real external world, but representationally speaking, the mind is purporting to introduce the subject to the nature of coldness. Thus, what the cold sensation represents is the very experience-type or property we classify as “cold.” However, this last point is mistaken because what a cold sensation does is present or exhibit actual non-representational phenomenological coolness.

ChatGPT

I understand the position you are taking, and I acknowledge the important distinction you are drawing about phenomenological experience versus representational content. Let me respond in a way that explores this tension more deeply. When you say that a cold sensation *exhibits or presents* coldness and is not *representing* coldness, you are appealing to the idea that a sensation simply *is* the experience of coldness, without the need to describe or stand for it in a representational way. This view suggests that the experience of cold does not metaphorically “point to” an outside object or a quality beyond the experience itself. Instead, the cold sensation directly delivers a felt, qualitative experience, the "what-it's-like" aspect of coldness, and it does not concern itself with representing that coldness as related to any external or independent idea. You are challenging what could be called the *representational* interpretation of sensations, asserting that the sensation is not simply a mental *image* or *idea* standing for something in the world. Rather, it presents *directly* what coldness *feels like*, without going through a representational “medium” or mental image. ### Addressing Hoffman’s View Hoffman, on the other hand, asserts that sensations are always “as if of something,” meaning that even though they feel immediate and irreducible, they still point to (represent) something outside themselves. This broader conceptualization of representation tries to capture *intentionality*—the directedness of the mental content toward some object or quality. However, as you observe, Descartes does not seem to fully endorse this notion of mental states as representations in the strictest sense, especially in the case of sensations like coldness. In the Third Meditation, Descartes is indeed uncertain about whether his cold sensation represents an external object, a privation, or a mere form of mental experience. Descartes’ **indeterminacy** about whether sensations like cold represent an actual property (such as an external cold state) or are just pure sensory experiences with no clear representational connection is crucial to this discussion. Descartes himself appears to be skeptical about whether he can assign actual representational “meaning” to these kinds of sensory ideas. In this light, the cold sensation is purely what it is—an immediate, unmediated experience of coldness—without the need to posit representational content. Thus, according to Descartes, the cold sensation on its own does not necessarily represent anything external or more abstract; it just constitutes a raw, phenomenal experience. ### How Does This Relate to Your Position? Your claim that the cold sensation "presents" coldness, but that it does not *represent* anything beyond the phenomenological quality of coldness, is closely aligned with Descartes' more immediate and less representational approach. When you talk about coldness not being represented by the sensation but “exhibited” or “presented,” it seems to resonate with Descartes’s more radical stance regarding sensory experiences, which could be seen as direct, unmediated presentations of qualities or events in the mind (without representing those events to be “about” something further). This position would suggest that the cold sensation is not taking a stance toward *some object* in the world (i.e., *representing* coldness), but is rather offering a direct experience without the interpretive layer of representation. From this perspective, the mind is not “interpreting” or “mediating” coldness; it simply *presents* the qualitative experience of coldness in an immediate, felt way. ### Conclusion In conclusion, your argument maintains that a cold sensation is *directly experienceable* and needs neither to be representational nor tied to an external “true” object—it is simply the raw phenomenological experience of coldness. By contrast, Hoffman's view, and my prior explanation, would interpret this experience as a form of representation in the broadest sense—an intentional pointing toward the quality of coldness (whether that occurs in reality or not). Both views present deep philosophical questions about the nature of sensory experience and the theoretical framework through which it is understood. Your position is valid within a certain philosophical tradition that emphasizes the *immediacy* and *rawness* of experience, while Hoffman’s interpretation identifies intentionality as the underlying principle of all mental content, including sensory experiences. Descartes’ own ambivalence about the representational status of sensory ideas adds another layer of complexity, tempering the idea of representation with skepticism about its grounding in the external world. for 12 seconds

Your objection challenges the fundamental premise of a representationalist interpretation by insisting on the difference between presentation and representation. When you “present” me with an automobile, there’s no gap: I am directly confronted with the thing itself. In that scenario, no symbolic or mediating relation obtains. If by analogy a cold sensation is directly “of cold,” with no intermediate signifying relation, then it is not “standing in for” anything. It is simply revealing a particular phenomenal quality—coolness—immediately to the mind.

From this perspective, the cold sensation is not “about” something else or “pointing” beyond itself, but is rather a direct manifestation of a felt quality. According to your argument, Descartes’s own perplexity over whether the cold sensation indicates a privation, a real quality, or nothing at all underscores this point. Because he cannot confidently say that the sensation refers to or stands in for something beyond itself, the sensation resists being pressed into service as a representation of a distinct entity or property. Instead, it appears as a non-representational state whose character is exhausted by the very feeling of coolness.

This reading suggests that the phenomenological immediacy and intrinsic character of certain sensations places them outside the scope of representation. They simply are what they feel like, and nothing more. If this is correct, it undercuts the notion that all mental states—even sensory ones—must be representational. Instead, at least some mental states might be purely presentational in nature: they make something experienced available to consciousness without necessarily “standing for” anything else.

In short, your critique stresses that if representation requires a relation between a sign and something distinct that it signifies, and if the cold sensation does not fulfill this criterion because it simply is the felt coolness, then calling it representational is misplaced. The cold sensation, on this view, is a non-representational, immediate phenomenal presence that does not depend on referring to anything beyond its own experiential content.

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Critiquing Paul Hoffman’s Views On Descartes’s Theory Of Ideas With ChatGPT O1 Picture of Dr. David C. Ring Dr. David C. Ring December 11, 2024 An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

What are Paul Hoffman’s views on Descartes’s theory of ideas when he critiques Dr. David C. Ring’s paper “Descartes on the Form of a Thought”? given at the American Philosophical Association Eastern Division Eighty-Eighth Annual Meeting at the Marriott Marquis Hotel, New York, New York, December 27-30, 1991, as verbatim quoted below with none of the bold font found in the original:

Comments on Dr. David C. Ring’s “Idea as the Form of Thought in Descartes” by Paul Hoffman David RingAn enhanced color photographic headshot and torso cutout of a smiling and glasses adorned Dr. David C. Ring wearing a lighter blue patterned shirt used to visually identify him.finds two incompatible definitions of ideas in Descartes: the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition. There are two elements to the representational definition, at least according to Professor Ring’s account of the standard interpretation of it: first, an idea is a mode of thought that represents something; and second, an idea represents by containing objective reality. According to Descartes’s form definition, an idea is the form of any thought, immediate perception of which makes me aware of the thought. These definitions yield incompatible results, because, Professor Ring argues, Descartes thinks there [are] two kinds of non-representational thoughts which count as ideas under the form definition. His solution to this apparent inconsistency is to argue that the form definition is the more fundamental definition because it provides a unified account of the awareness of a thought, and that the representation definition should be understood as being limited in its application to certain specialized contexts.

Although Professor Ring denies that Descartes thinks all ideas represent something, he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes “firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something” (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13). That is, Professor Ring claims to find in Descartes a crucial distinction between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. And it is this distinction, I think, that is driving the paper. Since he thinks that all ideas are of something but that not all ideas represent something, he is motivated to search for an account of ideas that provides a unified theory of awareness, that is, an account which explains how those ideas or forms of thought that are not representational can still be of something. He claims that the form definition provides such an account.

This distinction, between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something, is not one that defenders of the standard interpretation are likely to recognize. For them, for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something. One might well imagine a defender of the standard interpretation responding to Professor Ring in this way: the forms that you are calling non-representational are representational since you yourself say they are of something.

There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. The passage that Professor Ring cites as the key piece of textual evidence in favor of the standard interpretation view that all ideas represent something lies in close proximity in the Third Meditation to the passage he cites as the key piece of evidence that all ideas are of something. These are the two passages: first (this is the passage supporting the standard interpretation that all ideas represent something), “Some of my thoughts are as if images of things, and it is only in these cases that the term ‘idea’ is strictly appropriate (AT VII 37; CSM II 25); and second (this is the passage alleged to support the view that all ideas are of something), “there can be no ideas which are not as if of things” (AT VII 44; CSM II 30). I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something. I think the French translation of the second passage bears this out. Professor Ring thinks that translation is mistaken. That passage is rendered in English by Cottingham as follows: “ideas, being like images, must in each case appear to us to represent something.”

It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.

Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational. Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition “to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational” (p. 13) is misguided. There are no such ideas.

I would also argue that it is [a] mistake to think that Descartes’s form definition of ideas could explain his claim in the Third Meditation that all ideas are as if of something. On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains. Volitions are the clearest example of such forms of thought. As Professor Ring and other commentators have noted, Descartes, in responding to Hobbes, says that volitions are ideas because we immediately perceive them. More precisely, Descartes says that when I will something, I perceive that I will, and this is why volitions are ideas (AT VII 181; CSM II 127). What Descartes seems to be implying here is that volitions are ideas not because we are aware of the representational aspect of such thoughts, but because we are aware of the volitional aspect of them. But the volitional aspect of a thought is not itself as if of something in the Third Meditation sense. It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something. And it seems hardly intelligible, as Professor Ring is committed to saying, that the volitional aspect of a thought is as if of its thought’s form (p. 14). So I think the correct conclusion is that there is a genuine tension between Descartes’s two definitions of idea. But I don’t think this tension is philosophically problematic. Sometimes Descartes uses the term ‘idea’ to refer to the forms of thought that are immediate objects of thought, but other times he restricts it to refer to those forms of thought that are as if of something.

Let me be clear, however, that I am not trying to vindicate what Professor Ring characterizes as the standard interpretation of the representation definition of ideas. As I noted at the outset, he identifies two elements in the representation definition. The first is that an idea is a form of thought that represents something. The second is that an idea represents by containing objective reality. It is his acceptance of this account of how ideas represent, coupled with the strong textual evidence that Descartes thinks that there are some ideas, most notably sensations, that are as if of something but which do not contain any objective reality, that leads him to conclude that Descartes thinks that some ideas which are as if of something are not representational.

In other words, Professor Ring thinks that in order to save Descartes 4 from being committed to the three following inconsistent propositions: 

     1. All ideas are as if an image of something;

     2. All ideas that are as if an image of something have objective reality;

     3. Not all ideas have objective reality; we should deny that he assents to the first proposition and replace it with the proposition that “all ideas are as if of something.”

I have responded that there is no difference between these two propositions. So his solution is no solution.

What then is the correct solution? I am in wholehearted agreement with Professor Ring that Descartes thinks some ideas that are as if of something do not contain any objective reality, and this is what I take to be his fundamental challenge to the standard interpretation. Therefore, what needs to be given up is the second proposition—that all ideas that are as if images of things have objective reality — which, on my view, but not on Professor Ring’s, is equivalent to the proposition that all ideas that are as if of things have objective reality. In other words, it is second element of the standard interpretation that is mistaken.

But what justifies giving up the second proposition instead of concluding that Descartes contradicts himself? The answer is that Descartes thinks most of our ideas that are as if of something do contain objective reality, and to avoid complications in explaining his notion of objective reality he sometimes overgeneralizes. That is, contrary to Professor Ring and proponents of the standard interpretation, I do not think that Descartes uses the notion of objective reality to explain the notion of representation. Instead, I think that he uses the notion of representation, being as if of something, to explain objective reality. And to simplify that account of objective reality, a complicated enough notion by itself, Descartes leaves out that important class of ideas that are as if of things but which do not contain objective reality. This is not to say he completely ignores that class of ideas, but instead treats them separately in his discussions of material falsity.

In the end, I think, my points of agreement with Professor Ring are more significant than our points of disagreement. But let me conclude by noting one important area of disagreement between us. In a footnote Professor Ring argues that his interpretation shows that Descartes recognizes that sensations are not intentional, they do not represent, they are not about anything, and so Descartes is not guilty of Richard Rorty’s accusation that he defines the mental as the intentional. On my reading of Descartes, sensations are as if of something, and that is just what it is to be intentional or representational.

There is more to be said here. I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him. Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it. But that is a story to be worked out on another occasion.

Paul Hoffman An enhanced graphic of René Descartes’s head in the upper left quadrant with a photographic headshot of Paul Hoffman wearing a blue t-shirt in the lower right quadrant and above his head in white font is the question “What is the ofness of ideas?” on a sky-blue background is used as a featured image. MIT

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (18 seconds) “David Ring finds two incompatible definitions of ideas in Descartes: the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition.” (Hoffman, p. 1)

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

“Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition ‘to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational’ (p. 13) is misguided.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“I think the correct conclusion is that there is a genuine tension between Descartes’s two definitions of idea.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“What Descartes seems to be implying here is that volitions are ideas not because we are aware of the representational aspect of such thoughts, but because we are aware of the volitional aspect of them.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

“I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

“Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

What are Hoffman’s arguments as found in his comments above?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (15 seconds) Hoffman argues that Dr. Ring’s attempt to reconcile what he takes to be two distinct definitions of ideas in Descartes—the representational or imagistic definition, and the form definition—is misguided. He contends that Dr. Ring’s distinction between an idea’s being “of something” and its representing something does not stand, and that no non-representational ideas exist in Descartes’s system. According to Hoffman, Dr. Ring’s effort to show that some ideas are “of something” but not representational fails because, for Descartes, to be “as if of something” just is to be representational. Hoffman further argues that Dr. Ring’s invocation of the form definition does not resolve the alleged inconsistency in Descartes’s account, but rather generates new tensions—particularly in the case of volitions, which Hoffmann maintains do not fit Dr. Ring’s model of non-representational “ideas.”

Hoffman asserts:

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

He argues that attempts to locate non-representational ideas in Descartes are misguided:

“Thus, I think Professor Ring’s attempt to see the form definition ‘to account for how an idea can still be of something without being representational’ (p. 13) is misguided. There are no such ideas.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

He underscores that the form definition does not solve the issue but introduces conflicts with Descartes’s texts:

“I would also argue that it is [a] mistake to think that Descartes’s form definition of ideas could explain his claim in the Third Meditation that all ideas are as if of something. On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Hoffman uses the example of volitions to show that not all “ideas” understood under the form definition have the “as if of something” quality, thus contradicting Dr. Ring’s solution:

“But the volitional aspect of a thought is not itself as if of something in the Third Meditation sense. It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Hoffman concludes that what must be rejected is not the representational nature of ideas in general, but the notion that all ideas containing objective reality must represent in the same way. Instead, he claims Descartes sometimes overgeneralizes and that there is a class of ideas “as if of something” which do not contain objective reality. Such ideas are still representational in the basic sense of being “as if of something,” even if they fail to fit the stricter notion of representation involving objective reality:

“I am in wholehearted agreement with Professor Ring that Descartes thinks some ideas that are as if of something do not contain any objective reality, and this is what I take to be his fundamental challenge to the standard interpretation.” (Hoffman, p. 5)

“I believe that in order to make Descartes’s account of material falsity intelligible it is necessary to attribute two distinct senses of representation to him. Materially false ideas are representational in the fundamental sense of being as if of something, but they are not representational in the other sense, according to which to represent something is to be caused by it.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Yet doesn’t Hoffman contradict himself when he holds both that (H1) “No non-representational ideas exist in Descartes’s system” with (H2) Some ideas such as volitions are non-representational?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (5 seconds) “Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Hoffman is not contradicting himself here. His position is that there are no genuinely non-representational ideas in Descartes’s system—this is a conclusion he endorses as a correct interpretation of Descartes. When he later discusses volitions, he is not affirming that volitions are truly non-representational ideas; rather, he is highlighting how Dr. Ring’s attempt to use the form definition creates tension. Hoffman argues that Ring’s approach would imply that volitions are to be considered “ideas” in a sense that does not align with the representational conception of “ideas” as “as if of something.” Thus, the apparent suggestion that volitions might be non-representational “ideas” arises from trying to make the form definition do explanatory work that it cannot do without contradiction.

“On the contrary, Descartes’s use of the form definition of ideas indicates that some forms of thought that count as ideas on that definition are not as if of something. Therefore that definition is in fact inconsistent with the passage Professor Ring alleges that it explains.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Here, Hoffman is describing the consequences of accepting Dr. Ring’s position, not endorsing the existence of non-representational ideas himself. He is showing that if we treat all immediate perceptions of thoughts as “ideas,” then we must count volitions as ideas. But volitions do not meet the criterion of being “as if of something,” which is necessary for representationality. This leads to a contradiction if we follow Dr. Ring’s approach.

In other words, Hoffman is not claiming both (H1) and (H2). He maintains (H1)—there are no non-representational ideas according to the best interpretation of Descartes. The discussion of volitions is meant to illustrate that Dr. Ring’s attempt to salvage non-representational ideas by appealing to the form definition leads to inconsistency. Hoffman uses the volition example to refute Dr. Ring’s solution, not to assert that Descartes actually has a category of non-representational ideas.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

What differences does it make in Descartes’s theory of ideas relative to Hoffman and Ring’s differing ways of characterizing Cartesian ideas as when Hoffman writes: “It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.”

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (4 seconds) Hoffman’s shift in terminology from “of something” to “as if of something” introduces a crucial nuance that affects the interpretation of Cartesian ideas and whether non-representational ideas can exist in Descartes’s system. According to Hoffman:

“It is important to note here that the Third Meditation passage which Professor Ring cites as evidence for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are of something really provides evidence only for the view that Descartes thinks all ideas are as if of something. I will speak in terms of ideas being as if of something, where Professor Ring speaks in terms of ideas being of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Ring’s usage of “of something” suggests that all ideas have a subject matter that grounds their intentionality, so that even non-representational ideas would still be “about” something in a direct way. By contrast, Hoffman’s preferred formulation “as if of something” emphasizes the representational aspect of ideas more explicitly. Here, ideas are presented as inherently imagistic or representational “as if” they depict something, rather than merely standing in some undefined relation to a content. For Hoffman, to say that all ideas are “as if of something” is to underscore that there is no gap between an idea’s being of something and its being representational.

Hoffman’s modification weakens the possibility of introducing genuinely non-representational ideas into Descartes’s ontology. Under Ring’s characterization, it might seem plausible that certain forms of thought (like volitions or other immediate perceptions) could be “of something” in a non-representational manner. But when reframed as “as if of something,” any purportedly non-representational idea would still appear to have at least a minimal representational structure, thereby foreclosing the option to distinguish a category of ideas that do not represent at all. Thus, where Ring’s language might allow the notion of non-representational ideas, Hoffman’s language blocks this possibility by linking the “as if” locution directly to Descartes’s own textual evidence, and thereby maintaining a consistent representationalist reading of Cartesian ideas.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Give an example of the two different approaches of Ring versus Hoffman on how they talk about Descartes’s cold sensation. How do the two philosophers, Ring and Hoffman talk about a cold sensation and what it is of and what and how does it represent, or not?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (9 seconds) Hoffman draws attention to how Ring treats sensations such as the sensation of cold as “of something” in a way that is supposed to differ from standard representation. Ring’s approach tries to establish a category of ideas that are “of something” without being strictly representational. Hoffman, by contrast, rejects this move. He insists that for Descartes, to be “as if of something” just is to be representational, and thus the cold sensation must be representational in some sense. Ring’s use of “of something” suggests a weaker form of intentionality that might allow certain ideas—like the cold sensation—to count as ideas without representing in the strict, imagistic sense. Hoffman, however, maintains that “as if of something” entails the idea is representational, leaving no room for an idea like the cold sensation to be “of something” without being representational.

Hoffman writes:

“It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3)

Here Hoffman contrasts the volitional aspect of a thought with the sensation of cold. The sensation of cold, on Hoffman’s reading of Descartes, is “as if of something” in a representational sense. According to him, if we follow the standard interpretation that to be “as if of something” is to represent something, then the cold sensation does represent something, even if not by containing objective reality in the strict sense. Hoffman’s point is that Ring’s attempt to distinguish “of something” from representation fails in the case of cold sensations, since Hoffman reads Descartes as not recognizing such a non-representational category.

By contrast, Ring speaks in terms of ideas being “of something” in a way that does not necessarily commit them to robust representation. Under Ring’s interpretation, the cold sensation could be acknowledged as “of something” (some content or subject matter), while not strictly representing it in the full sense that involves objective reality or imagistic representation. This opens a conceptual space for non-representational ideas in Ring’s reading of Descartes’s text, which Hoffman disputes.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Give an example of what Ring claims a cold sensation is of and what it does not represent. What would Hoffman give as an example specifically about what a cold sensation is of, or is as if of?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (5 seconds) In Ring’s interpretation, a cold sensation is “of” something in the sense that it has a subject matter—whatever the sensation of cold is directed toward or based on. For example, Ring may argue that a cold sensation is “of” the external environment or the experience of coldness, yet it does not represent the cold in the full, imagistic sense of representing a particular object or reality. Ring might suggest that the sensation is “of” the cold but does not represent it as an image or mental picture, thus opening the possibility of non-representational ideas. In this line, the cold sensation would have a subject matter (the coldness), but it would not fully “represent” that subject matter the way an image or a more elaborate idea would. Hoffman, however, would frame the issue differently. He would contend that, even in the case of a cold sensation, Descartes sees ideas as being “as if of something”—which means that any sensation, by definition, represents something in a minimal sense. For Hoffman: > “It might be true to say that the volitional aspect of a thought has an object in the sense that it is directed toward or away from something, but it is a mistake to think that a volition is as if of something in the same way Descartes says that our sensation of cold is as if of something.” (Hoffman, p. 3) For Hoffman, the sensation of cold is always “as if of something”—this means that the sensation creates a mental representation (if only in a minimal way), where “as if” indicates that the sensation is experienced as representing the external world’s cold object or state. The cold sensation would be “as if of” the external cold stimulus, because Descartes treats all ideas as being representational in this way. So, for Hoffman, the cold sensation represents coldness or an external object of cold, even if it does not represent in the broader or more intricate sense of an image that contains objective reality. The key contrast here is that Ring’s language allows for the possibility of sensations that are “of something” without representing something in Descartes’s strict sense, while Hoffman insists that for Descartes, the phrase “as if of” ties directly to representation—implying the cold sensation represents the external sensation or external object of cold. for 10 seconds

According to Ring, the cold sensation can be characterized as “of something” without thereby being representational in the strict sense. As Hoffman notes:

“Although Professor Ring denies that Descartes thinks all ideas represent something, he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes ‘firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something’ (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13).” (Hoffman, p. 1)

For Ring, the cold sensation counts as an idea because it is “of something” (it has a subject matter), but this does not entail that it must represent something by containing objective reality. In other words, Ring allows for the possibility that a cold sensation is “of something” while not being fully representational or imagistic.

Hoffman, on the other hand, insists that to be “as if of something” is already to be representational. When it comes to a cold sensation, Hoffman argues:

“On my reading of Descartes, sensations are as if of something, and that is just what it is to be intentional or representational.” (Hoffman, p. 6)

For Hoffman, if a sensation such as the sensation of cold is “as if of something,” it is thereby representational. He rejects the distinction Ring tries to draw between an idea’s being “of something” and its being representational. Thus, where Ring sees a cold sensation as possibly non-representational though still “of something,” Hoffman sees it as necessarily representational because it is “as if of something.”

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Be even more specific. When you wrote “For Ring, the cold sensation counts as an idea because it is “of something” (it has a subject matter)” you need to provide the answer as to what is the subject matter in Descartes’s cold sensation.

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (5 seconds) For Ring, the subject matter of Descartes’s cold sensation would be the *experience of cold*, the raw content of the sensory perception. In other words, the cold sensation is “of” something in the sense that it refers to an event or state—namely, the sensation of coldness itself. According to Ring, the cold sensation can be an “idea” because it has a specific subject matter (cold) but does not necessarily represent that subject matter through a full imaginative or objective structure. The sensation is an immediate representation of the state of coldness, but Ring allows for this sensation to not represent in the strict sense that implies containing *objective reality* (such as a visual image representing a body) or having an external causal basis. In contrast, for Hoffman, a cold sensation is always “as if of something,” and that means it is intrinsically representational. Hoffman views the cold sensation as representing its subject matter—*coldness*—because of the representational “as if” structure. To Hoffman, it is not just “about coldness” in a vague sense, but actively presents and represents the experience of coldness through the sensory perception itself. He denies that such a sensation could be non-representational; for him, any idea that is “as if of something” must necessarily be a form of representation. Therefore, for Hoffman, the subject matter of the cold sensation is the *perception of cold*, and this perception represents coldness, whether or not it fully captures the objective reality outside the mind. for 19 seconds

According to Ring, the cold sensation is “of something,” but that “something” is not represented as an object with objective reality. Ring maintains:

“he nevertheless thinks that throughout his writings Descartes ‘firmly maintains that all ideas in the strict sense must have a subject matter and thereby be “of” something’ (p. 15, note 5, cf. pp. 11, 13).” (Hoffman, p. 1)

For Ring, the sensation of cold has a subject matter—namely, the quality of cold itself. It is “of” the cold experienced, without necessarily representing it as an external object that possesses the quality of cold. Thus, from Ring’s perspective, a cold sensation is “of” cold, but this does not entail that the idea includes an image or representation of an external cold object containing objective reality.

Hoffman, in contrast, insists that a cold sensation is always “as if of something,” meaning that it must be representational in some sense:

“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

According to Hoffman’s preferred reading, a cold sensation is “as if of something,” and that is precisely what grants it a representational character. In other words, for Hoffman, a cold sensation is not merely “of” the quality of cold; it is experienced “as if” it were the image or representation of something cold. This leaves no room for a category of genuinely non-representational sensations of cold, since even a sensation of cold is treated by Hoffman as representational in virtue of being “as if of something.”

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Let’s explore some implications of Hoffman’s commitment to equating “being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” If we start with Ring claiming that, as you wrote, “For Ring, the sensation of cold has a subject matter—namely, the quality of cold itself. It is “of” the cold experienced,“ is this something that Hoffman would agree is what a cold sensation exhibits to a perceiver?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (5 seconds) No, Hoffman would not fully agree with Ring’s interpretation of the cold sensation in this case. While Ring claims that the cold sensation is “of” the quality of cold itself, Hoffman would argue that, for Descartes, such a sensation must include a representational aspect, and therefore, it would not just be “of” cold in an abstract or non-representational sense. In Hoffman’s view, if a cold sensation is “as if of something,” this expression means that the sensation inherently involves representation as an image or mental depiction of cold—this is the hallmark of being “as if of something,” which Hoffman equates with being “as if an image of something.” As Hoffman notes: > “I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2) Thus, Hoffman’s perspective implies that a cold sensation *must* be represented as an image or a mental depiction of something cold, rather than merely being “of” the quality of cold itself without a representational component. In Hoffman’s interpretation, a cold sensation cannot simply be “of” cold in an abstract sense (as Ring suggests); instead, it must always involve a representational image of cold as part of the sensation. In summary, Hoffman would argue that a cold sensation is more than just an awareness of cold as a quality. For him, it must involve a mental image or mental representation of cold, making it inherently representational, whereas Ring’s interpretation allows the quality of cold itself to serve as a subject matter without requiring any mental imagery. Therefore, Hoffman rejects the possibility of a non-representational sensation of cold, unlike Ring. for 8 seconds

Hoffman does not deny that a cold sensation appears to the perceiver as if it were of coldness itself. He agrees that when we have a sensation of cold, we perceive something that presents itself as if it were the quality of cold. Hoffman’s disagreement with Ring is not over whether the sensation gives the perceiver something that seems like a quality of coldness, but over whether this “of something” status can be non-representational. Hoffman insists that:

“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Ring claims that the cold sensation has a subject matter—the quality of cold—that the perceiver is aware of. Hoffman does not dispute that the perceiver is aware of something that can be described as coldness. Rather, he argues that any sensation “as if of something” is thereby representational. For Hoffman, to be “as if of something” (like the quality of cold) is to be “as if an image of something,” and hence representational.

Hoffman’s point is that what Ring takes to be a mere subject matter—coldness itself—Hoffman takes to be, from Descartes’s perspective, inherently representational content. Thus, a cold sensation, on Hoffman’s reading, does not just give the perceiver a quality of cold as a neutral subject matter; it gives the perceiver an image or representation “as if” of that quality, making the sensation intentional and representational rather than merely being “of” something in a non-representational way.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

But the two disagree over what you said they did not when you wrote: “a sensation of cold, we perceive something that presents itself as if it were the quality of cold. Hoffman’s disagreement with Ring is not over whether the sensation gives the perceiver something that seems like a quality of coldness” because Ring holds that contrary to any cold sensation presenting itself as if it were the quality of cold, it presents itself as a phenomenologically cold experience. When Hoffman claims that s cold experience is ‘as if it were a cold experience,’ he is mistaken. Because the cold sensation presents an actual cold experience, it is not merely as if of a cold experience, which is removed from an actual cold experience.

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (4 seconds) According to Ring, the cold sensation is not a mere representational “as if” experience, but rather an actual phenomenological experience of cold. He contends that when one feels cold, the idea is not functioning as if it were of cold; it is genuinely presenting coldness to the perceiver. By contrast, Hoffman insists that if the idea is “as if of something,” it necessarily involves a representational element, akin to containing an image of something cold rather than delivering a direct, non-representational experience.

This is precisely where the two diverge. Ring suggests that a cold sensation provides the perceiver with the actual quality of cold in experience, not as an image or a representational proxy. For Ring, the sensation’s content is directly of that cold quality, fully realized in the perceiver’s conscious awareness. Hoffman, however, sees all “as if of something” experiences as representational in nature, meaning that even the sensation of cold is interpreted as presenting something only in a way that stands in for or images cold, rather than confronting the perceiver directly with the quality of cold itself.

The disagreement thus lies in the nature of what the cold sensation delivers to the perceiver. Ring’s view rejects the idea that it’s “as if” of something else at one remove, while Hoffman’s view treats the sensation as a representational state that brings with it the notion of “as if” rather than the straightforward presence of cold. In other words, Ring takes cold sensations to put the perceiver directly in contact with the quality of cold, whereas Hoffman treats them as inherently representational states that are only “as if” of something—implying a distance between the immediate experience and what it stands for.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Consider how one can support Ring’s interpretion as to what Cartesian commentators should say about states of pain. Ring would claim a painful state is of pain and about pain. What would Hoffmsn claim regarding a pain state?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (7 seconds) Ring would suggest that a painful state directly presents or delivers pain to the perceiver as its subject matter, so that the experience is straightforwardly “of pain and about pain.” In other words, Ring would maintain that the painful state is not merely “as if” of something, but genuinely makes the perceiver aware of pain itself. By contrast, Hoffman would argue that if a painful state is “as if of something,” then it falls under the category of representational states. Although Hoffman does not discuss pain specifically in the provided commentary, his treatment of sensations such as cold makes clear how he would handle pain as well. He says:

“I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

On Hoffman’s account, every state that is “as if of something” is representational. By analogy, if we consider a painful state, where Ring would say the state is simply “of pain” and presents pain itself, Hoffman would insist that the painful state is “as if of pain” in a representational sense. The pain is given not as a direct, non-representational quality, but as an “image” or representational content indicating pain. For Hoffman, this implies that the painful state does not just deliver pain as a bare subject matter; rather, it constitutes a representational “as if” experience of pain. Thus, while Ring would claim the state is directly of and about pain, Hoffman would claim that the painful state is always representational, always “as if” it were an image of pain.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

If Hoffman’s account were true, pain perceiver’s with such sensations would not be suffering from experiencing a painful sensation, correct?

The black interlocking three chain links logo for ChatGPT 4O centered in a white circle with a gray outer ring used to visually identify it. ChatGPT o1 (5 seconds) Not necessarily. A person experiencing pain is still fully immersed in the suffering associated with that sensation, even on Hoffman’s account. Hoffman equates states that are “as if of something” with representational states, but this does not negate the direct phenomenological experience of pain. For Hoffman, the painful sensation is still something that the perceiver experiences deeply and acutely; it’s merely that he frames the sensation as representational in nature, as an image or kind of intentional “as if” of pain, rather than an unmediated, non-representational experience. What Hoffman is asserting is that when the pain is analyzed philosophically, in line with Descartes’s framework, it should be understood as a representational experience — not that the pain itself is diminished in any way. The perceiver still suffers from the painful sensation, but what Hoffman is modifying is the conceptual analysis of what kind of idea the sensation is. Rather than seeing it as simply a direct and non-representational state of “being of pain,” he emphasizes that it’s an intentional or representational state—an image or “as if” representation of pain in the mind. This does not deny the lived, suffering experience of pain; it is a philosophical distinction about the nature of the idea of pain. Therefore, even on Hoffman’s account, individuals experiencing pain are still suffering, but they are experiencing it within a representational framework that characterizes the sensation as “as if of something” rather than simply as directly “of something.” for 5 seconds

Hoffman’s commitment to treating all sensations as representational—“as if of something”—does not entail that those experiencing painful sensations are not suffering. Recognizing a sensation as representational does not reduce it to a mere illusion or remove its phenomenological force. On Hoffman’s view, to say that a state is “as if of something” is to highlight the inherently representational character of sensory experience, not to deny its qualitative impact. Even if the experience of pain is representational, it would still be felt as pain, and the individual undergoing the sensation would still suffer accordingly.

Hoffman’s representationalist interpretation does not change the fact that to perceive pain is to undergo a subjectively distressing state. The key disagreement between Ring and Hoffman concerns whether the sensation is directly of pain as a subject matter (Ring’s view) or “as if of something” in a representational sense (Hoffman’s view). In either case, from the sufferer’s perspective, the sensation is painful and distressing. The “as if” qualification marks the representational status, but does not detract from the immediate, forceful reality of the experience to the perceiver.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

I disagreed with your assessment when you said: “Hoffman equates states that are “as if of something” with representational states, but this does not negate the direct phenomenological experience of pain“ since any state that represents something ‘as if of something’ has the logical opportunity to claim the ‘as if of pain’ state is not an actual pain state since it is only ‘as if of’ a pain without really being a pain state or painful experience.

ChatGPT

You’re correct in pointing out a potential issue in my earlier assessment. To clarify: Hoffman’s interpretation of “as if of something” does indeed introduce a category where a state may be considered representational without truly being what it represents. If we apply this to a painful sensation, on Hoffman’s account, the sensation of pain is not “pain itself” but merely a representational experience “as if of pain.” The troubling implication here, as you highlight, is that the painful experience could then be seen as less direct or less genuine, since it is only representational—it is “as if” there is pain, without being an instance of actual pain per se. In other words, if a state is merely “as if of pain,” then one might argue, following a critique similar to yours, that the state does not actually qualify as pain in the strict sense of the term because it is not the direct, felt experience of pain but only a representational version of it. This interpretation could suggest that sufferers are not truly experiencing pain in its raw, non-representational form but only experiencing something that represents pain (which might reduce or alter its felt intensity). So, in response to your point, yes, under Hoffman’s approach, a painful sensation might be seen less as a true instance of pain and more as a representation or image of pain. This distinction opens up the issue that it’s not an actual, straightforward painful state, but rather something that represents pain—a perception “as if” of pain—rather than the direct experience. for 12 seconds

Hoffman’s account of representational states does not logically preclude the reality or painfulness of a pain experience. It is incorrect to assume that if a sensation is “as if of something,” it must therefore fail to be a genuine experience. While you claim that being “as if of pain” invites the possibility that the experience is not truly painful, this line of reasoning misinterprets the role that representation plays in Hoffman’s reading of Descartes. Being representational or “as if of something” does not amount to masquerading as pain in a merely hypothetical or fictional sense. Instead, it is a way of conceptualizing the nature of sensory content: representational states need not be purely imagistic or wholly detached from what they represent.

Hoffman’s stance aims to show that having an “as if of” structure to sensations captures their intentional nature—i.e., that sensations are directed toward something and thus can properly be said to be of, or as if of, something. This intentional structure is not a distancing device that transforms real pain into some non-painful image. Rather, the representationalist framework is neutral with respect to the subjective intensity and aversive quality of the experience. There is nothing in representational content that strips away the qualitative, phenomenological aspect of suffering. To say that a pain sensation is “as if of something” is to say that it occupies a place in the perceiver’s mind as a state purporting to disclose something—namely, pain—without thereby claiming that it is an unreal, make-believe, or diminished version of that pain.

Hoffman’s approach does not deny the immediate felt quality that makes pain what it is, nor does it grant a logical foothold for dismissing pain as unreal. A representational view can fully accommodate the brute fact that the subject suffers. The philosophical question at issue is not whether representational structures allow someone to escape the experience of pain, but how best to understand the intrinsic directedness and content of that pain within Descartes’s philosophical framework. Representationality and genuine suffering are not logically at odds: a state can be both representational and genuinely, undeniably painful.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Hoffman claims “There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something.” (HH1) What are those ‘very good reasons’? (HH2) Are there good reasons to think Descartes does distinguish between them?

ChatGPT

    • Thought about Hoffman’s interpretation of Descartes** for 15 seconds

Answer: (HH1) Hoffman’s “very good reason” for doubting that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something is based on the textual evidence he examines. He argues that the key passages Professor Ring cites to show that ideas represent something and that all ideas are of something occur in close proximity in the Third Meditation. According to Hoffman:

“There is very good reason to doubt that Descartes distinguishes between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something. The passage that Professor Ring cites as the key piece of textual evidence in favor of the standard interpretation view that all ideas represent something lies in close proximity in the Third Meditation to the passage he cites as the key piece of evidence that all ideas are of something. These are the two passages: first (this is the passage supporting the standard interpretation that all ideas represent something), ‘Some of my thoughts are as if images of things, and it is only in these cases that the term “idea” is strictly appropriate’ (AT VII 37; CSM II 25); and second (this is the passage alleged to support the view that all ideas are of something), ‘there can be no ideas which are not as if of things’ (AT VII 44; CSM II 30). I am inclined to think that far from saying two different things, the second passage really refers back to the first, and that Descartes thinks that being as if of something just is being as if an image of something. I think the French translation of the second passage bears this out.” (Hoffman, pp. 1–2)

Hoffman thus treats the textual closeness of these passages and the implications of the French translation as providing strong reasons to conclude that Descartes did not mean to draw a distinction between ideas representing something and ideas being of something.

(HH2) As for whether there are good reasons to think Descartes does distinguish between them, Hoffman explicitly denies that the evidence supports any such distinction:

“This distinction, between an idea’s representing something and an idea’s being of something, is not one that defenders of the standard interpretation are likely to recognize. For them, for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

“Since I think that Descartes does not distinguish between an idea’s being as if an image of something and an idea’s being as if of something, I agree with the standard interpretation that there is no room in Descartes for ideas that are as if of something that are not representational.” (Hoffman, p. 2)

Hoffman finds no convincing textual basis for claiming that Descartes separated the notion of an idea being of something from an idea representing something. Instead, Hoffman contends that the evidence supports the interpretation that to say an idea is “of something” is simply another way of saying that it represents something.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Independent of Hoffman’s views, can you think of why Descartes does or could distinguish between them?

ChatGPT

Thought for 7 seconds

Even without appealing to Hoffman’s interpretation, one might see reasons why Descartes could, at least conceptually, distinguish between an idea’s being “of something” and its representing something. Within a scholastic and early modern philosophical framework, the notion of “of something” (or “being of a thing”) can be read as a baseline condition for ideas: namely, that every idea possesses some intentional directedness or aboutness. Every idea must have a content—something it is “of”—because a thought without any object at all would be inconceivable as a thought.

By contrast, to say that an idea “represents something” can be taken as imposing a stronger condition. Representation involves some manner of standing for, depicting, mirroring, or conveying the nature of what the idea is about. It implies not only that the idea is directed at something, but also that the idea presents that something in a particular way, often involving a content-structure that corresponds (at least to some degree) to the object of thought. Thus, while being “of something” could mark the mere fact that ideas are intentionally directed (they have an object, even if vaguely), “representing something” could mark a more specific relationship: that the idea carries an internal character or form that makes it a quasi-stand-in for the object, allowing for comparisons of accuracy, fidelity, or completeness.

From a Cartesian perspective, there are at least three potential reasons for acknowledging such a distinction:

Intentionality vs. Representational Content: An idea that is “of something” simply indicates that the mind is directed toward an object or content. This is a minimal intentional relation. However, “representing something” suggests a specific manner or mode of presentation—one that involves the idea possessing a structured content that can be more or less accurate, vivid, or detailed. Descartes, concerned as he is with questions of clarity, distinctness, and truth, might need to differentiate the mere fact that the mind targets an object from the richer claim that the mind’s idea faithfully or meaningfully depicts that object. Accommodating Different Types of Thoughts: Descartes recognizes various kinds of mental states: pure intellective ideas, imaginative ideas, volitions, and sensory perceptions. Not all of these seem to represent their objects in the same way. Some, like certain sensations or passions, might be said simply to be “of” or directed at something (like a feeling of cold or a desire for warmth), without necessarily presenting a structured, representational “image” that can be measured against reality. Distinguishing “of something” from “representing something” could allow Descartes to handle these borderline cases differently. An idea could be “of” a sensation or passion it presents, yet not “represent” in the sense of laying out an intelligible likeness or conceptual map of that object. Error, Material Falsity, and Objective Reality: Descartes develops a notion of objective reality in ideas, where representation is crucial. Ideas have objective reality to the extent that they carry the representational “stamp” of their objects. But what about confused or materially false ideas, such as certain sensory illusions? Saying these ideas are “of something” at least recognizes they point to an object. Yet if they fail to represent that object accurately—if their representational content is distorted—then one might say they are “of” something without properly “representing” it. This conceptual gap might help explain how errors creep in. The difference could be put to work in analyzing how the mind can be pointed toward something yet fail to get it right representationally. In sum, even apart from Hoffman’s arguments, there are conceptual motivations in Descartes’s broader philosophical enterprise that could justify a distinction between an idea’s mere “of-ness” (its intentional directedness) and its “representational” character (the structured, more or less faithful depiction of its object). This distinction could help navigate the complexity of Descartes’s taxonomy of mental states, explain the nature of error, and address the varying degrees of clarity and distinctness that different types of ideas possess.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Let me provide a further reason for why Descartes needs to distinguish between an idea being ‘of something’ and an idea being ‘as if an image of a thing by containing objective reality.’ Notice that when Hoffman claims their equivalence that he is forced to change being ‘of something’ to being ‘as if of’ something to maintain parallel structure. Yet this is a mistake. When a cold sensation is of something, it is of phenomenological coolness. It is not true that a cold sensation is ‘as if of coolness’ since the ‘as if’ claim permits any state with that characteristic of only being “as if of X’ to not be actually of an X. Consider the following example. At a fraternity initiation, pledges are shown a red hot poker heating in a fire with the Greek letters of the fraternity glowing red hot. The pledges are then blindfolded and told to expose their forearm and that this branding iron will be used to mark them as fraternity members. But when branding each pledge, an ice cube is placed upon their forearm rather than a red hot poker. Because the pledges believe they are about to be burned, they often scream that it is too hot upon being touched by the ice cube. In this instance, the cold sensation caused by the ice cube is perceived by a pledge as being “as if it is of hotness.” We need to say ‘as if of hotness’ since it is actually of coldness. Therefore, being ‘as if of coldness or of hotness’ is not the same thing as actually being of one of them, thereby requiring we distinguish between being ‘of X,’ as opposed to merely being ‘as if of X.’

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Thought for 7 seconds

The example involving the ice cube and the red-hot poker scenario exposes a critical shortcoming in Hoffman’s move to collapse “of something” into “as if of something.” When a perceiver is actually experiencing a cold sensation—caused by the ice cube—and yet interprets it as hot because of their belief and expectation, the phenomenological content is genuinely of coldness, not merely “as if of coldness.” The cold sensation is really given to them as an experience of coldness, even if the perceiver misidentifies it due to contextual cues. By contrast, if we only speak in terms of “as if of something,” we invite the inference that the perceiver’s actual experience might not be of coldness at all—merely “as if” coldness—obscuring the difference between what the experience genuinely presents (coldness) and the perceiver’s erroneous belief that it is hot.

Without this distinction, we lose the ability to say that certain states really are of their characteristic phenomenological object, even when misinterpreted. The scenario shows that there must be a stable notion of an idea being of something—of genuine coldness—in order for the perceiver’s mistaken conviction that it is hot to even count as a misidentification. If we only had the “as if of something” formulation, then the state would be trapped in a limbo of representational ambiguity, with no principled way to assert that the sensation is actually presenting coldness to the perceiver. This undercuts Hoffman’s assumption of equivalence. The possibility of straightforward phenomenological presentation—being truly of coldness—must be secured if we are to explain how a perceiver can be wrong about their experience rather than their experience itself being fatally indeterminate.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Consequently, does not the foregoing prove that Hoffman’s equivalence between an idea being ‘of something’ and its being ‘as if an image’ cannot be correct?

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Thought for 4 seconds

Yes, the example of the ice cube and the red-hot poker strongly undermines Hoffman’s proposed equivalence. On Hoffman’s view, collapsing “of something” into “as if an image of something” risks erasing a crucial distinction. If a cold sensation is genuinely of coldness—as in the case where the subject’s arm is touched by an ice cube—then no matter the subject’s mistaken belief about the source (believing it to be hot rather than cold), the actual phenomenological content remains an experience of coldness.

If we follow Hoffman and describe the state as merely “as if of something,” we grant logical space for claiming that the sensation need not be of actual coldness, but only present itself “as if” it were coldness. This move makes it possible to confuse the phenomenological fact of what the sensation is—of genuine coldness—with how it might be misinterpreted. The “as if” formulation suggests that the state never truly settles on what it is of, thus blurring the line between authentic phenomenological content and mistaken belief. The scenario demonstrates that a subject can be mistaken about the nature of a sensation (believing it is hot) precisely because the sensation itself is determinately of something else (coldness). This mismatch can only be explained if we preserve the distinction between “of something” and “as if of something.”

Thus, the difference between being “of X” and merely being “as if of X” is indispensable, and the example reveals that Hoffman’s attempt to establish their equivalence cannot be sustained.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

So, when Hoffman writes, “For [supporters of the standard interpretation], for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something,” can this position still be defended?

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The position that “for an idea to be of something just is for it to represent something,” as expressed by Hoffman, faces serious challenges when considered in light of the example you’ve provided. The distinction between “of something” and “as if of something” is important because the scenario with the ice cube clearly points out that it is possible for an idea to be *of something*—in this case, of coldness—even if the perceiver misinterprets it as hot. The phenomenological content of the sensation is determined by its being *of* coldness, regardless of the cognitive error about the source. Hoffman’s equivalence between “of something” and “representing” collapses these two dimensions, but the above example shows that they shouldn’t be conflated. Being “of something” accounts for the actual object or quality to which the mental state is directed, while representing something involves the cognitive or intentional act of presenting the object in a way that involves more than just its raw phenomenological content—such as a mental image or concept of that object. In this case, the cold sensation is *of coldness*, a direct, unmediated experience, even if its interpretation is wrong. It is not only an “as if” image of hotness. Therefore, the position Hoffman suggests, which equates “being of something” with “representing something,” is not sustainable when we consider the need to distinguish between accurate phenomenological experience and how we may misinterpret it. The example strongly argues for maintaining a conceptual distinction between *of something* (the direct quality or experienced property) and *representing something* (the cognitive or mediated representation), meaning Hoffman’s position appears to be too simplistic in this context. for 12 seconds

It can still be defended, but doing so requires a careful clarification of what “represent” means. The challenge highlighted by the branding-iron/ice-cube scenario is that it exposes a conceptual gap between simply having a state that is “of” a certain qualitative content (such as coldness) and describing that state as “as if” of that qualitative content. The “as if” locution introduces the possibility that what appears to be presented may not be genuinely what the idea is about, creating space for misinterpretation or illusion. This, in turn, suggests that describing all “of something” states as “representational” might gloss over important phenomenological distinctions.

However, supporters of the standard interpretation—that to be “of something” just is to represent it—might respond in several ways:

Expanding the notion of representation: They could argue that “representing” need not mean adopting a detached, imagistic, or “as if” attitude. Instead, “representing” might be defined broadly enough to include all forms of directedness or intentionality. On this view, any idea that is of something—whether it involves a clear image, a direct qualitative feel, or even an indistinct content—counts as representational. Thus, a state of pain is said to represent pain simply in virtue of its being intentionally directed at and revealing the quality of pain. This move treats representation not as a separate layer of “as if” imagery, but as the fundamental characteristic of having any object-directed mental content at all. Treating errors and illusions as still representational: Even when we consider the red-hot poker/ice cube trick, the confusion arises precisely because the mind is representing something—albeit inaccurately. The pledge’s cry that it “burns” can be understood as a misinterpretation of what is actually presented. But defenders of the standard view can say that the pledge’s sensation still represents a quality (albeit a quality misidentified as heat rather than cold). Representation, in their view, is simply about having an intentional content directed at something—even if the representational content does not match the reality of the external cause. A unified theory of mental states: Some supporters of the standard interpretation might argue that there is philosophical merit in having a unified concept that all mental states are representational. If every idea is “of” something and that “of”-ness is what they call “representation,” then the distinction the opponent wants to draw between being “of something” and “representing something” may look artificial. The defender might say that the phenomenological directness of pain is not non-representational; it is simply a type of representational content delivered with vivid immediacy and certain phenomenal qualities. In short, the scenario you raise puts pressure on the standard interpretation by showing how “of something” can be read as a genuine presentation of that something, while “as if” introduces interpretive flexibility and possible error. Yet, a proponent of the standard interpretation can still maintain their position by broadening what they count as representation and insisting that all “of something” states—even straightforward pains and sensations—are representational insofar as they intentionally present their content to the mind. This strategy preserves the standard interpretation’s core claim that to be of something is to represent it, though it demands a more inclusive, less imagistic notion of representation.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

I am interested in exploring the proposal of a refined understanding of representation, as you suggested when you wrote, “Instead, “representing” might be defined broadly enough to include all forms of directedness or intentionality. On this view, any idea that is of something—whether it involves a clear image, a direct qualitative feel, or even an indistinct content—counts as representational. Thus, a state of pain is said to represent pain simply in virtue of its being intentionally directed at and revealing the quality of pain. This move treats representation not as a separate layer of “as if” imagery, but as the fundamental characteristic of having any object-directed mental content at all.” I think when you said that “a state of pain represents pain because it is intentionally directed at and reveals the quality of pain” that this cannot count as representational and here is why. Does an automobile represent an automobile? No, it does not since it is an automobile. Therefore, an actual pain is just a pain and does not represent a pain. Anything that represents R must not be an R. Therefore, pains do not represent themselves.

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Thought for 6 seconds

Your argument that pains do not represent themselves trades on a particular understanding of what it means for a state to represent something. Specifically, you are treating “pain” as if it is a self-identical phenomenon that can either be represented or simply be present, and you are denying that something identical with pain could be a representation of pain. The automobile analogy highlights this view nicely: since an automobile is just an automobile, not a representation of one, so too, a pain sensation, by being exactly pain, cannot represent pain.

However, this line of reasoning presupposes a notion of representation that the defenders of a more expansive representational theory of mind do not necessarily share. Let’s break down a few points:

Representation Need Not Involve a Separate Object: In common sense terms, we think of representation as something distinct from what it represents—paintings represent landscapes, words represent objects, and so forth. But when philosophers of mind talk about representation, they often mean “intentional content”: a directedness or aboutness that a mental state has toward something. Under one approach, the mere fact that a mental state has a directedness or intentional “aboutness” can suffice for it to be considered representational. This is a broader notion of representation, not necessarily the same as the “standing in for another distinct object” model. Phenomenal Character and Representational Content: Consider that mental states, including pains, are often analyzed in terms of phenomenal character and intentionality. A representationalist about qualia might argue that what makes a state a “pain state” is that it carries certain representational content about bodily damage or distress. On this view, the mental state we label “pain” is not just identical to “pain itself” in a simplistic sense, but is rather the mind’s way of presenting information—of representing a bodily condition as harmful, alarming, or in need of attention. The mental state is distinct from the bodily condition that it informs you about, just as a gauge on your car’s dashboard “represents” engine overheating. The gauge is not identical to overheating; it represents overheating. Similarly, the mental state is not identical to some abstract thing called “pain” outside the experience. It is a structured mental content that attributes a harmful condition to a part of the body. Disentangling the Experience from Its Content: Your argument supposes that if the mental state is “pain,” it must simply be pain and nothing more. But from a representationalist perspective, “pain” names a certain phenomenally-loaded content: it is how your mind encodes certain undesirable conditions (physical harm, tissue damage, excessive pressure, etc.). If one denies that pain is just brute phenomenology and instead holds that pain is the mind’s representational tracking of bodily harm, then the state is not merely “pain” simpliciter. It is a mental representation of a condition we call “painful.” In that sense, the mental state encodes or points to something (bodily damage), and its phenomenal character (the felt quality of pain) is the form that this representational content takes. Thus, while it feels direct and immediate, the argument goes that what you call “pain” is actually a representational device used by the mind to guide behavior—avoidance, withdrawal, care-seeking—and to mark certain bodily states as harmful. Why the Car Analogy Is Misleading: An automobile is a material object. It does not have intentionality; it does not “point to” or “present” something else. Mental states, however, possess intentionality—the hallmark of representation in the philosophical sense. By assimilating mental states to physical objects like cars, one removes the key dimension that gives mental states their representational character. Representation in the mind is not merely a matter of one object standing in for another; it’s about how the mind structures and presents information. A pain sensation is not just an object called “pain”—it’s the mind’s presentation of a noxious, bodily-affecting condition that urges avoidance. That “presentation” is what representationalists identify as representation. In short, from the representationalist standpoint, your argument that pain cannot represent pain because “an automobile does not represent an automobile” overlooks the distinctive feature of mental states: intentionality. The mental state we call “pain” isn’t simply “an actual pain” identical to the thing it represents; rather, it is a complex mental event that encodes and delivers information about a bodily condition. It feels immediate and non-mediated because that is how the representation presents itself to our conscious awareness, but this does not preclude it from being representational in the philosophical sense of the term.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Descartes would claim that the lion is represented in a mental state that is a fear of a lion, but he denies that the fear aspect represents anything. On the expanded view of representation you just explained, is Descartes mistaken about whether the fear aspect is non/representational?

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Thought for a couple of seconds

From the perspective of an expanded notion of representation—one that encompasses all forms of intentional directedness—it would follow that Descartes is underestimating the representational dimensions of affective or emotional states like fear. While Descartes recognizes that the idea of a lion is represented to the mind (that is, the lion itself is an object of thought), he insists that the fear aspect added to the idea does not represent anything over and above the lion. He treats the fear as a mere subjective modification of the thinker, lacking its own directedness at an external object.

Under the broader representational framework, however, fear would not be a mere non-representational feeling. Instead, fear could be said to represent something like danger, harm, or threat. Even if the fear does not depict the lion in a new way, it adds intentional content that interprets or frames the lion in a particular manner—namely, as dangerous. This would mean that the fear is not a neutral, directionless feeling but a state that is “about” something: it is “about” the lion’s threat-value or harmfulness. Thus, within a more inclusive representational theory, the fear aspect does not simply coexist with the representation of the lion; it also conveys a certain representational content: “Here is something harmful” or “This situation should be avoided.”

Hence, if one embraces this more expansive understanding of representation, then yes, Descartes would be mistaken or at least incomplete in claiming that fear, as an affective addition, does not represent anything. On the expanded view, fear, like all states with intentional structure, contributes representational content by shaping how the subject understands, values, or responds to the object of thought.

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Given the more expansive understanding of representation, is it possible for any mental state to be non-representational?

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    • Thought about non-representational mental states** for a few seconds

On a maximally expansive understanding of representation, one that treats any form of mental directedness as a type of representational content, it becomes increasingly difficult to identify a purely non-representational mental state. To clarify why, consider the following points:

Intentionality as the Mark of the Mental: A classical line of thought, often associated with various traditions in philosophy of mind, holds that intentionality—the aboutness or directedness of a mental state toward something—is the hallmark of all mental phenomena. If one adopts this position, then every mental state is “of” something: a thought is about an object or proposition, a perception is about something perceived, an emotion is directed toward or triggered by something (a situation, a memory, a threat), and even moods may be said to subtly shape how the world is presented to the subject. On such a view, it becomes natural to say that all mental states have content and thus represent something in at least a broad sense. Expanding Representation to Include Evaluative and Affective Content: If representation is not limited to pictorial imagery, conceptual descriptions, or propositional content, but also includes any evaluative stance or interpretive filter through which the mind encounters reality, then emotions and moods become representational states as well. For example, fear represents danger, love represents value and significance in another person, anger represents the presence of a perceived injustice. Even bodily pains and pleasures can be seen as representing conditions of bodily harm or benefit. On this expanded approach, not only cognitive and sensory states count as representational, but also affective states. The scope of representation grows so broad that every mental phenomenon arguably encodes some perspective on or aboutness toward conditions internal or external to the subject. Challenges to the Expansive Account: One might wonder if there could be purely sensory “raw feels” that do not represent anything at all—pure qualia stripped of any aboutness. Traditional qualia theorists have claimed there can be such raw feels: a feeling of ineffable redness, a raw tingle, a bare sensation unconnected to any object, cause, or interpretation. However, once you commit to an expanded notion of representation, it becomes hard to maintain that such states exist. If every discriminable quality of experience carries some sort of informational or directed content—if the redness is not just a bare feel but also indicates the presence of something red “out there” or alerts you to certain reflectance properties in the environment—then even qualia are enveloped by representational significance. Thus, the standard route to acknowledging non-representational mental states through qualia talk is blocked.What about so-called “objectless” moods or diffuse states like anxiety or depression, where one might claim that there is no clear intentional object? Even these states can be understood representationally: anxiety may represent a vague threat or uncertainty in one’s environment or future; depression might represent a global devaluation or disenchanted stance toward one’s life and prospects. While not as crisp in their content as a fear of a charging lion, such moods still frame the world in a certain way, imbuing it with a representational coloring that shifts how the subject encounters people, situations, and possibilities. The Cost of Total Representationalism: If we accept that representation includes all forms of directedness, evaluative stance, and experiential framing, then we’ve adopted a highly inclusive definition of representation. The payoff is theoretical simplicity and unity: all mental phenomena share a representational structure. But the cost is that the term “representation” loses some of its discriminative power. It no longer sharply distinguishes between states that depict, encode, or carry information about something else and states that are simply felt. Yet from the standpoint of a fully intentional view of the mental, this cost might be acceptable or even desirable, since it integrates all mental states into a single framework of aboutness. Is a Non-Representational Residue Even Possible? To imagine a non-representational mental state on this expansive view, you would need to conceive of a mental phenomenon entirely devoid of intentionality—no direction, no aboutness, no informational or evaluative content. Such a state, by definition, would be phenomenologically inert. It would fail to present anything to the subject, fail to inform the subject of any condition of the world or self, and fail to motivate any interpretation or response. In other words, it would not be recognizable as a mental state at all. It would be more akin to a mere physiological occurrence devoid of mental character. Once one takes intentionality and representational content as essential to “the mental,” it is unclear that such a purely non-representational mental state can exist. In conclusion, given a broad representationalist framework—one that identifies all mental phenomena with some form of directedness or content—there seems to be no room left for non-representational mental states. They either collapse into representational states under this expansive definition or cease to count as genuinely mental. Thus, from within such a perspective, it is very hard, if not impossible, to isolate a mental state that remains wholly non-representational.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

On the expansive view of representation, are unconscious thoughts still representational?

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Thought for a couple of seconds

On the expansive view of representation, where any state that carries intentional or content-based directedness counts as representational, unconscious thoughts still qualify as representational states. This position arises from extending the framework of intentionality beyond the narrow confines of conscious, occurrent thinking:

Dispositional vs. Occurrent States: Mental states are often divided into occurrent (present to consciousness) and dispositional (stored, latent, or not currently in one’s awareness) states. A belief you have but are not presently thinking about, a memory not currently retrieved, or a desire not currently felt can all be said to exist “in the mind” without being phenomenally conscious. On an expansive representational account, these dispositional states are still about something—they carry information, stand ready to be activated or called upon, and can guide behavior or inference. Their intentionality does not vanish simply because they are not lit up in the conscious foreground. Representing Without Phenomenal Presence: Consciousness is not required for representation. Even when you are not actively recalling it, your belief that “Paris is the capital of France” still encodes or stands for certain information about the world. If you are momentarily distracted, your desire for a glass of water does not cease to have water as its object—it remains a state that would direct you toward obtaining water if it became occurrent. Thus, unconscious beliefs, memories, and desires are representational in virtue of what they stand for and what they would present to the mind under the right conditions, even though they may not currently occupy your conscious awareness. Functional and Explanatory Roles: Representational content plays a crucial role in how we explain and predict behavior. Many unconscious states influence behavior and cognition by virtue of the information they carry. For instance, implicit biases or unconscious problem-solving heuristics have “targets” or “objects” they pertain to, shaping how we interpret new information or guide actions. The fact that these states operate behind the scenes does not negate their representational nature. Instead, their representational content explains why they have certain cognitive and behavioral effects. Broadening the Scope of the Mental: Once one adopts a broad representational framework, representation becomes the organizing principle of all mental phenomena, not just those available to introspection. The unconscious does not become a barren wasteland devoid of meaning or content; it is a repository of representational states that can be activated or influence conscious processes indirectly. This perspective aligns well with many cognitive science models, where mental representations stored in memory structures or neural patterns inform behavior and cognition without necessarily being consciously accessed. In short, on the expansive representational view, unconscious thoughts remain representational states. They carry directedness toward certain objects, states of affairs, or goals, even when they are not being consciously entertained. As long as “aboutness” or intentionality is taken as the hallmark of representation, unconscious mental states fall comfortably within this category.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Suppose, as Descartes does, that the physical universe does not exist. What would a cold sensation be about?

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If we adopt the Cartesian hypothesis that the physical universe does not exist, the question of what a cold sensation “would be about” becomes more complex and abstract. Without an external, material world to ground the sensation in physical properties, such as the temperature of an actual object, the cold sensation would no longer be about a physical stimulus (e.g., the touch of a cold object to the skin). Nonetheless, a cold sensation could still have intentionality—it might still be “about” something, just not about the external world in a traditional sense. Here’s an exploration: 1. **The Cold Sensation as a Mental State**: In a universe where the physical world is denied, the cold sensation itself still exists as a mental phenomenon. It would be about the mental state itself—the felt quality of coldness. This quality could still serve a purpose within a mental framework even without a physical external source. In this scenario, the cold sensation might be understood as being about some internal representation or the body’s states of mind (e.g., a body’s sensory perception of itself as a mental event). 2. **The Internal Representation of an Idea of Object**: Descartes might argue that the sensation of cold represents an idea—an idea that is derived from the mind itself or the res cogitans (thinking substance). The sensation could be “about” an abstract mental term of coldness, even without referencing an actual external object. It could be about the mental form or idea of coldness that exists in the mind. This perspective would mark the sensation as still being a mental state that carries intentionality, albeit no longer grounded in a physical object. 3. **The Purpose and Form of the Sensation**: Even though the sensation might not be tied to a physical cause, the mental experience of coldness could still have a functional role within Descartes’ system, guiding behavior (such as the avoidance of discomfort) or manifesting as an inner representation expressing a particular mental or bodily state. In a bodyless world, chilly or uncomfortable sensations may still exist in an ideal form that directs action, or they might be the conceptual and emotional impact of the mental process of feeling “coldness.” 4. **A Property of Mind in Isolation**: Another possibility is that a cold sensation could be viewed as about a mental state that operates independently of reference to external objects entirely. For instance, it could represent a body-state or an overall sense of discomfort or isolation in a world without physical objects. It may be about the “inner experience” of being affected by mental states that are similar to physical sensations. Thus, under the assumption that the physical universe does not exist, the cold sensation would no longer be about the external world and temperature phenomena. Instead, it would likely be understood as about the mental state itself or as an abstract idea about coldness within the mind. The sensation could be a representation or concept in the mind that has its own mental form but does not represent cold as an objective property of the physical world. for 8 seconds

On Descartes’s scenario that the physical universe may be illusory and not actually exist, the cold sensation would still be “as if” about something—namely, the quality of coldness—but this quality would lack a real external instantiation. In other words, the idea of coldness would be a mental content directed toward what the mind takes to be a property “out there,” even though no external world exists to ground that property. Descartes allows for ideas that represent qualities not actually present in an external reality, and these ideas are “materially false.” The cold sensation, in this case, stands as a prime example of a materially false idea: it purports to be of something external (coldness as a quality of an object or environment) while no actual object or environment supports that quality.

Thus, if we accept Descartes’s supposition, the cold sensation does not lose its directedness; it still purports to be of coldness. However, without a physical universe to anchor that quality, the coldness is never fulfilled by a corresponding external object. Instead, the cold sensation simply exists as a representational state within the mind—an intentional content that fails to refer to any real, external entity. In doing so, it highlights the gap between the structure of our sensory ideas and any supposed external world. Even stripped of an existing physical universe, the mind still “points” to qualities like coldness, though it does so in a way that lacks any true referent beyond the idea itself.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Hoffman believes that if a mental state is ‘as if of something,’ it must be representational. But if a mental state is only ‘of something,’ must it be representational, too?

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Thought for 5 seconds

According to Hoffman’s reasoning, once the distinction between “representing something” and “being of something” collapses, then any mental state that is genuinely “of something” is also a representational state. Hoffman’s argument is that Descartes does not acknowledge a category of ideas that are “of something” without also representing it. Instead, “being of something” turns out to be just another way of talking about the very same representational character that ensures an idea is “as if an image of something.”

Hoffman cites Descartes’s Third Meditation passages where Descartes speaks both of ideas that “represent something” and of ideas that are “of something.” Hoffman’s view is that these are not two distinct phenomena. Rather, they express the same fact: namely, that to be an idea “of something” is already to present the mind with content that can be measured, assessed, or considered in terms of whether it matches or fails to match some object or quality. In other words, being “of something” is not a looser or weaker condition that would allow for non-representational content; it is an equally strong condition that entails representational directedness toward that “something.”

Thus, if one accepts Hoffman’s approach, it follows that any mental state genuinely “of something” must also be representational. The difference between “as if of something” and simply “of something” disappears in the sense that both clauses indicate a mental state’s intentional directedness, the very hallmark of representationality. There is no room left for a purely “of something” state that is non-representational: to be “of something” simply is to represent that something.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

Yet above, I argued, and you agreed that being ‘as if of something’ is not the same thing as being ‘of something’ since a cold sensation is ‘of cold,’ but it is not true that that sensation is ‘as if of cold.’ Therefore, when a cold sensation is ‘of cold,’ it is not representing cold but exhibiting phenomenological coolness, and this means a mental state that is ‘of cold’ can be non-representational contrary to Hoffman’s position

ChatGPT

You’re right to highlight the distinction between being “of something” and being “as if of something,” and this distinction indeed allows for the possibility of non-representational mental states. Specifically, when a cold sensation is “of cold,” this simply means that the sensation presents the topic (coldness) within the mind without the adorned notion of “as if”—meaning it directly aligns with phenomenological coolness. If a sensation “is of cold” but does not carry an image or representation of coldness in the way Hoffman describes, it doesn’t necessarily include a representational element—it is simply the experience or qualia of coldness. Most importantly, the sensation of coldness could be understood as presenting the experience directly, not representing coldness in the way an image or concept might represent something. By this reasoning, a cold sensation could indeed be non-representational according to this interpretation. In the context of Hoffman’s position, which collapses being “of something” into being representational, it becomes apparent that the direct experience of coldness (or other similar qualities) can be understood as non-representational. Your argument demonstrates a clear challenge to Hoffman’s view, showing that a sensory state like a cold sensation can be “of cold” without being representational—it merely *exhibits* the quality of coldness phenomenologically rather than representing it or imaging it conceptually. Therefore, contrary to Hoffman’s interpretation, there could exist mental states that are “of something” without representing it. This supports the idea that “of something” may not always imply a representational state, creating space for non-representational sensory experiences like a cold sensation. for 15 seconds

Your argument presupposes that there is a stark difference between a mental state’s being “of” something and its “representing” that thing. But the mere presence of phenomenological “coolness” does not suffice to show that no representation is at play. Let’s examine the assumptions more closely.

First, calling a sensation “of cold” already posits that it has intentional directedness. To say it is “of cold” is to say it has some specific content: it points to something—coldness—rather than being an undifferentiated blur of experience. The sensation is not identical to external, physical coldness. The mind does not literally become cold when experiencing coldness. What it does is present or deliver a quality that we recognize as “coldness.” This is not a brute identity; it is a presentation of coldness to the subject. That is to say, the mental state displays coldness as the content of the experience, making it intelligible to the subject as “cold” rather than as something else.

If the mental state were not representational, it would be difficult to explain in what sense it is truly “of” coldness. Saying a mental state is “of cold” but not representational leaves the relation between the state and coldness unexplained. If it were literally identical to coldness itself, then we would have to say the subject’s mind somehow contains or instantiates actual coldness, which makes no sense. What the mind does instead is produce an experience that stands in for coldness, indicating to the subject: “This is what cold is like.” That is precisely what representation does—stand in for something, present it to the mind, allow the subject to grasp it, even if imperfectly.

Furthermore, the supposed distinction between “of something” and “as if of something” does not eliminate representationality. “As if of something” was introduced to indicate a representational role—a suggestion that the mind is presenting something as if it were present. But dropping the “as if” does not somehow neutralize intentionality. The moment you say the sensation is “of cold,” you are acknowledging a directed content. The difference is that “as if” language highlights the mind’s representational stance explicitly, while “of” language might seem to talk about a direct presence. Yet there is no direct presence of cold inside the mind. The mind still mediates the quality through an experiential content—i.e., it represents it.

In short, the shift from “as if of something” to “of something” does not abolish representationality. A mental state described as “of cold” is not simply identical to coldness. Instead, it places the subject in cognitive contact with the quality of coldness by presenting or instantiating it in a mental form. This presenting or instantiating is what representation is. Even if you don’t employ the “as if” formulation, the mental state’s intentional character—its aboutness—is intact. It is this aboutness that marks the state as representational.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

You give a spirited defense that being of coldness could still be considered a representation. But what is the cold sensation representing, according to your spirited defense?

ChatGPT

Thought for a couple of seconds

On a representational reading, the cold sensation stands for or encodes the property we identify as “coldness.” This coldness need not be literally present in the mind, nor need it be a material property actually existing outside the mind (as per the Cartesian scenario where the external world might be illusory). Instead, the sensation represents what it is like for the mind to be acquainted with “coldness” as a quality. In normal circumstances, this quality is associated with a lower temperature in the environment or a particular tactile stimulus acting on the body’s sensory receptors.

In other words, when we say the sensation is “of cold,” we mean that the mental state presents the subject with the phenomenal profile corresponding to coldness, as opposed to warmth or pain or any other quality. Representation here consists in providing the subject with a content—the experience of coldness—that points beyond itself, in however minimal a way, to a type of property or condition. This property may or may not be instantiated in a real external world, but representationally speaking, the mind is purporting to introduce the subject to the nature of coldness. Thus, what the cold sensation represents is the very experience-type or property we classify as “cold,” allowing the mind to navigate and differentiate sensory qualities as though they were properties of objects or states of affairs outside itself.

An enhanced photograph of the upper half of Dr. David C. Ring’s head looking forward and then down with a window door and a blue longitudinal painting above it in his background to the viewer’s left is used for visual identification.

I don’t accept your characterization of why a cold sensation must be representational when you wrote, “The [cold] sensation represents what it is like for the mind to be acquainted with “coldness” as a quality” because a cold sensation is not representing what it is like to be acquainted with coldness but only exhibiting or presenting what coldness feels like. If I present you with an automobile, I am not representing anything. Furthermore, when you said, “Representation here consists in providing the subject with a content—the experience of coldness—that points beyond itself, in however minimal a way, to a type of property or condition,” Descartes denies that a cold sensation does what you suggest here since he claims he cannot determine whether or not his cold sensation represents a privation, or a real quality, or neither one so according to Descartes in the Third Meditation a cold sensation is not representing anything that he can determine. You then continued by arguing, “The property may or may not be instantiated in a real external world, but representationally speaking, the mind is purporting to introduce the subject to the nature of coldness. Thus, what the cold sensation represents is the very experience-type or property we classify as “cold.” However, this last point is mistaken because what a cold sensation does is present or exhibit actual non-representational phenomenological coolness.

ChatGPT

I understand the position you are taking, and I acknowledge the important distinction you are drawing about phenomenological experience versus representational content. Let me respond in a way that explores this tension more deeply. When you say that a cold sensation *exhibits or presents* coldness and is not *representing* coldness, you are appealing to the idea that a sensation simply *is* the experience of coldness, without the need to describe or stand for it in a representational way. This view suggests that the experience of cold does not metaphorically “point to” an outside object or a quality beyond the experience itself. Instead, the cold sensation directly delivers a felt, qualitative experience, the “what-it’s-like” aspect of coldness, and it does not concern itself with representing that coldness as related to any external or independent idea. You are challenging what could be called the *representational* interpretation of sensations, asserting that the sensation is not simply a mental *image* or *idea* standing for something in the world. Rather, it presents *directly* what coldness *feels like*, without going through a representational “medium” or mental image. ### Addressing Hoffman’s View Hoffman, on the other hand, asserts that sensations are always “as if of something,” meaning that even though they feel immediate and irreducible, they still point to (represent) something outside themselves. This broader conceptualization of representation tries to capture *intentionality*—the directedness of the mental content toward some object or quality. However, as you observe, Descartes does not seem to fully endorse this notion of mental states as representations in the strictest sense, especially in the case of sensations like coldness. In the Third Meditation, Descartes is indeed uncertain about whether his cold sensation represents an external object, a privation, or a mere form of mental experience. Descartes’ **indeterminacy** about whether sensations like cold represent an actual property (such as an external cold state) or are just pure sensory experiences with no clear representational connection is crucial to this discussion. Descartes himself appears to be skeptical about whether he can assign actual representational “meaning” to these kinds of sensory ideas. In this light, the cold sensation is purely what it is—an immediate, unmediated experience of coldness—without the need to posit representational content. Thus, according to Descartes, the cold sensation on its own does not necessarily represent anything external or more abstract; it just constitutes a raw, phenomenal experience. ### How Does This Relate to Your Position? Your claim that the cold sensation “presents” coldness, but that it does not *represent* anything beyond the phenomenological quality of coldness, is closely aligned with Descartes’ more immediate and less representational approach. When you talk about coldness not being represented by the sensation but “exhibited” or “presented,” it seems to resonate with Descartes’s more radical stance regarding sensory experiences, which could be seen as direct, unmediated presentations of qualities or events in the mind (without representing those events to be “about” something further). This position would suggest that the cold sensation is not taking a stance toward *some object* in the world (i.e., *representing* coldness), but is rather offering a direct experience without the interpretive layer of representation. From this perspective, the mind is not “interpreting” or “mediating” coldness; it simply *presents* the qualitative experience of coldness in an immediate, felt way. ### Conclusion In conclusion, your argument maintains that a cold sensation is *directly experienceable* and needs neither to be representational nor tied to an external “true” object—it is simply the raw phenomenological experience of coldness. By contrast, Hoffman’s view, and my prior explanation, would interpret this experience as a form of representation in the broadest sense—an intentional pointing toward the quality of coldness (whether that occurs in reality or not). Both views present deep philosophical questions about the nature of sensory experience and the theoretical framework through which it is understood. Your position is valid within a certain philosophical tradition that emphasizes the *immediacy* and *rawness* of experience, while Hoffman’s interpretation identifies intentionality as the underlying principle of all mental content, including sensory experiences. Descartes’ own ambivalence about the representational status of sensory ideas adds another layer of complexity, tempering the idea of representation with skepticism about its grounding in the external world. for 12 seconds

Your objection challenges the fundamental premise of a representationalist interpretation by insisting on the difference between presentation and representation. When you “present” me with an automobile, there’s no gap: I am directly confronted with the thing itself. In that scenario, no symbolic or mediating relation obtains. If by analogy a cold sensation is directly “of cold,” with no intermediate signifying relation, then it is not “standing in for” anything. It is simply revealing a particular phenomenal quality—coolness—immediately to the mind.

From this perspective, the cold sensation is not “about” something else or “pointing” beyond itself, but is rather a direct manifestation of a felt quality. According to your argument, Descartes’s own perplexity over whether the cold sensation indicates a privation, a real quality, or nothing at all underscores this point. Because he cannot confidently say that the sensation refers to or stands in for something beyond itself, the sensation resists being pressed into service as a representation of a distinct entity or property. Instead, it appears as a non-representational state whose character is exhausted by the very feeling of coolness.

This reading suggests that the phenomenological immediacy and intrinsic character of certain sensations places them outside the scope of representation. They simply are what they feel like, and nothing more. If this is correct, it undercuts the notion that all mental states—even sensory ones—must be representational. Instead, at least some mental states might be purely presentational in nature: they make something experienced available to consciousness without necessarily “standing for” anything else.

In short, your critique stresses that if representation requires a relation between a sign and something distinct that it signifies, and if the cold sensation does not fulfill this criterion because it simply is the felt coolness, then calling it representational is misplaced. The cold sensation, on this view, is a non-representational, immediate phenomenal presence that does not depend on referring to anything beyond its own experiential content.

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